DQ'd

Allen, I can definitely relate. I've been DQ'd twice since I was maybe 9 years old, both in the last year and both unfairly (I thought at the time). Both swims were records and both were "breakthrough" swims for me, arguably my best swims of those seasons. One case was the 200 LCM back last year at Indy, broke the WR by 6 sec. DQ'd for going past 15m. What made it tough was (a) I took the same number of kicks I always take and (b) they didn't have permanent markers at 15m, they had to use the lane markers which don't all line up (because they can move). It was a judgment call and the ref had to back the judge. What makes it harder is that I saw a video of the race 2 days later and could see my start, and even zoomed in and advancing frame-by-frame I couldn't tell that I had gone past 15m by the time my head broke the surface. So it was close, and I guess I thought I should get the benefit of the doubt. It also bothers me that we have to be so precise in measuring pool lengths and can be so inexact about the placement of the 15m mark. Even Kathy Casey had no answer for me on that. In such cases it would seem to me that you have to obviously exceed the mark to be called on it. But fine, I push the envelope on underwaters; I figured there have probably been times in the past that I *haven't* been called when I should have been, though it was tough on a race where I swam so well (arguably one of my best 2 races in the last 4-5 years, and in my best event). But I got DQ'd in the 400 IM (what would have been a new USMS record by 3 sec) last spring for the exact same reason you did in the ***: double dolphin. My story is similar to yours: I don't push the envelope and I take a dolphin kick in the middle of the pull-down. I was flabbergasted to be called on this because I've never heard a hint that I was illegal on that. The judge couldn't tell me when I took the 2nd kick, but the ref backed him anyway. I hear so many stories of DQs for this that I think that they should either abolish dolphin kicks altogether (like the old days), or just allow as many as you want. What makes both of those calls tough is that I haven't approached either time since then (I was wearing jammers for both, so it isn't the suit). But I guess it gives me something to shoot for... :) I respect S&T judges a lot, but sometimes they seem to think they have to call something. My son was DQ'd twice in the summer championship meet last year for different infractions -- both bogus in my mind -- and in both cases he swam the same stroke he had done all summer (not to mention all year with USA-S) without getting DQ'd. That upset me more than my own DQ's because my son was so upset by it; one case was a relay where his team won first place at champs, and he was in tears b/c he felt he let his team down. So I guess I respect S&T judges less than I used to...at least the ones that seem a little too trigger-happy... Gosh, I guess I do feel better. Thanks, Allen!

any meet disappointments that you want to vent about are fair game as far as I'm concerned. I blew my taper last month. I'm not sure how though. I can't figure out why I didn't have the energy to race well on the day of the meet. But there I was, with my arms barely breaking the surface of the water at the end of the 200 fly, piano on my back even though I didn't go out too fast on the first 100. I might never taper again. I can do better with standard meet prep and a shave-down. Sorry to hear about your DQ Allen. I think one key lesson for both of us is that we need to enter more than one SCM meet per year. I should have entered the Hood River meet back in May; I didn't because it would have been a rather long drive. Seems trivial now.

I remember Chris Stevenson's story from 2009 LC nats about getting DQ'd in the 200 back, where he would have won a national championship. Remembering that story helped me feel better about my own insignificant DQ (At nats! In a 1000 free! For the start! And they let me swim the whole race!) Laura Val's story about getting DQ'd for a world record swim has to be the biggest heartbreaker I've heard so far. On the other hand ... I went to a senior olympics meet last summer where, you know, participation is everything. They weren't deeking people for anything. Illegal suits, flagrant one-handed turns in breaststroke, yanking on the lane lines in backstroke ... everything was ok. No DQ's. About halfway through the meet I wondered, why am I here? DQ's, and the possibility of DQ's, and the fact that DQ's rain down on even the most elite, as well as also-swams like myself, is what keeps our sport high-quality and worth doing. So after hearing these stories from the likes of Chris Stevenson and Laura Val and Allen Stark I believe that anyone who's anyone MUST have at least one DQ in their history! I am now proud of my insignificant DQ! This is as close as I'll ever get to being anything like Chris Stevenson, and my (hopefully only) contribution of this type to the integrity of the sport. Allen, I am sorry for your DQ and for the possibly faulty judgement of the ref. You guys who push the limits of our sport, who come ever so close to crossing the line, hooray for what you do and also for occasionally taking a hit for the team. Hope that helps.

Allen, I can definitely relate. I've been DQ'd twice since I was maybe 9 years old, both in the last year and both unfairly (I thought at the time). Both swims were records and both were "breakthrough" swims for me, arguably my best swims of those seasons. One case was the 200 LCM back last year at Indy, broke the WR by 6 sec. DQ'd for going past 15m. What made it tough was (a) I took the same number of kicks I always take and (b) they didn't have permanent markers at 15m, they had to use the lane markers which don't all line up (because they can move). It was a judgment call and the ref had to back the judge. What makes it harder is that I saw a video of the race 2 days later and could see my start, and even zoomed in and advancing frame-by-frame I couldn't tell that I had gone past 15m by the time my head broke the surface. So it was close, and I guess I thought I should get the benefit of the doubt. It also bothers me that we have to be so precise in measuring pool lengths and can be so inexact about the placement of the 15m mark. Even Kathy Casey had no answer for me on that. In such cases it would seem to me that you have to obviously exceed the mark to be called on it. But fine, I push the envelope on underwaters; I figured there have probably been times in the past that I *haven't* been called when I should have been, though it was tough on a race where I swam so well (arguably one of my best 2 races in the last 4-5 years, and in my best event). But I got DQ'd in the 400 IM (what would have been a new USMS record by 3 sec) last spring for the exact same reason you did in the ***: double dolphin. My story is similar to yours: I don't push the envelope and I take a dolphin kick in the middle of the pull-down. I was flabbergasted to be called on this because I've never heard a hint that I was illegal on that. The judge couldn't tell me when I took the 2nd kick, but the ref backed him anyway. I hear so many stories of DQs for this that I think that they should either abolish dolphin kicks altogether (like the old days), or just allow as many as you want. What makes both of those calls tough is that I haven't approached either time since then (I was wearing jammers for both, so it isn't the suit). But I guess it gives me something to shoot for... :) I respect S&T judges a lot, but sometimes they seem to think they have to call something. My son was DQ'd twice in the summer championship meet last year for different infractions -- both bogus in my mind -- and in both cases he swam the same stroke he had done all summer (not to mention all year with USA-S) without getting DQ'd. That upset me more than my own DQ's because my son was so upset by it; one case was a relay where his team won first place at champs, and he was in tears b/c he felt he let his team down. So I guess I respect S&T judges less than I used to...at least the ones that seem a little too trigger-happy... Gosh, I guess I do feel better. Thanks, Allen! I saw that 200 back. It was a beautiful race. I hope the magic will happen again. I find summer league judges to be somewhat trigger happy. Most knowledgable officials will give kids the benefit of the doubt unless a DQ is really clear. It's the inexperienced ones that typically search for a DQ. I was at a high school meet Friday night where I was an RTO. Another judge who had never officiated before called an early start. I did not, and it definitely wasn't. Fortunately, on that call, the two judges must agree so the team was not DQ'd. Allen, it completely sucks to be DQ'd at a taper meet that you've travelled for. If you're kicking in the middle of your pull down, I have no idea what the judge can see. Your toes moving or bobbing? Your body moving naturally? This year, I was DQ'd twice in ***, 100 *** at Zones (allegedly 2 complete stroke cycles, total BS) and 50 *** at Nats (double dolphin). Because I pre-kick before the pulldown, there is undulation when I pull down hard. (BTW, I think that is what I saw in watching David Guthrie's swim on the vid of Ande's record breaking medley relay this weekend.) How is it possible to not move the rest of your body when your upper half is engaged in a ferocious pulling motion? IDK, but I agree with Chris that there are now too many DQs as a result of the rule change. And it's odd. In 2009, I swam my 50 breasts (one an AA) the same way -- no DQ. In 2010, two DQs. Officials seem to be looking for something in breaststroke now. I am sorry about Laura Val and her 200 back. What did she allegedly do in that race? A non-continuous turn? When I was DQ'd at Nats (and that was after missing my heat for not being able to hear the start), I allowed myself some time to rage, then put it aside and concentrated on my next race. But, honestly, it soured my Nats experience. And it's made me more paranoid. Like Chris, now I have to worry about evil -- though I'll likely stop racing it as much -- and backstroke (15 meter rule). Still, I am stubborn and sticking with the pre kick and max SDK. And I think protesting a DQ at a masters meet is futile. The referee is typically not watching the race, so per se can't overrule a S&T. But I think they should be willing to throw out more DQ slips when the S&Ts don't write to the rule.

On the other hand ... I went to a senior olympics meet last summer where, you know, participation is everything. They weren't deeking people for anything. Illegal suits, flagrant one-handed turns in breaststroke, yanking on the lane lines in backstroke ... everything was ok. No DQ's. About halfway through the meet I wondered, why am I here? This is a little disturbing to hear, given that you will often see a person here and there who gets a top 10 time at the senior olympics. I went to these one year--the first year I was eligible, actually, and only because it was being held at Trees Pool in Pittsburgh, where I sometimes actually practice. It seemed like a bit of a money making scam--you had to first "pre-qualify" the summer before to be allowed to even swim in the actual meet. Both meets were fairly pricey, as I recall, and the "pre qualifying" one involved a long drive and spending money on a motel, etc. As for all you who have been DQ'd or otherwise victimized by rules run amok and perhaps unfairly applied, you have my sympathies! I always think of figure skater Jill Trenary, who I interviewed years and years ago. She was an excellent skater in many ways, but her one area of clear domination was the thing that actually gave figure skating its name: carving exact figures in the ice. That used to count for a significant minority of scoring points, and she had devoted countless training hours to getting really good at it. But then the powers that be decided that it wasn't telegenic enough--frankly, it was kind of boring to watch these slow motion maneuvers followed by judges with protractors and measuring devices attempting to quantify how close to perfect the etch lines were--but anyhow, it did seem really unfair to me that the powers that be just chanced the sport suddenly like that. I suspect the dolphin kick in breaststroke was added after that Japanese guy was accused of getting away with one (when it was illegal) and beating Hansens in the Olympics? Sorry. Enough meandering. Steelers losing. Time for bed.

I saw that 200 back. It was a beautiful race. I hope the magic will happen again. I find summer league judges to be somewhat trigger happy. Most knowledgable officials will give kids the benefit of the doubt unless a DQ is really clear. It's the inexperienced ones that typically search for a DQ. I was at a high school meet Friday night where I was an RTO. Another judge who had never officiated before called an early start. I did not, and it definitely wasn't. Fortunately, on that call, the two judges must agree so the team was not DQ'd. Allen, it completely sucks to be DQ'd at a taper meet that you've travelled for. If you're kicking in the middle of your pull down, I have no idea what the judge can see. Your toes moving or bobbing? Your body moving naturally? This year, I was DQ'd twice in ***, 100 *** at Zones (allegedly 2 complete stroke cycles, total BS) and 50 *** at Nats (double dolphin). Because I pre-kick before the pulldown, there is undulation when I pull down hard. (BTW, I think that is what I saw in watching David Guthrie's swim on the vid of Ande's record breaking medley relay this weekend.) How is it possible to not move the rest of your body when your upper half is engaged in a ferocious pulling motion? IDK, but I agree with Chris that there are now too many DQs as a result of the rule change. And it's odd. In 2009, I swam my 50 breasts (one an AA) the same way -- no DQ. In 2010, two DQs. Officials seem to be looking for something in breaststroke now. I am sorry about Laura Val and her 200 back. What did she allegedly do in that race? A non-continuous turn? When I was DQ'd at Nats (and that was after missing my heat for not being able to hear the start), I allowed myself some time to rage, then put it aside and concentrated on my next race. But, honestly, it soured my Nats experience. And it's made me more paranoid. Like Chris, now I have to worry about evil -- though I'll likely stop racing it as much -- and backstroke (15 meter rule). Still, I am stubborn and sticking with the pre kick and max SDK. And I think protesting a DQ at a masters meet is futile. The referee is typically not watching the race, so per se can't overrule a S&T. But I think they should be willing to throw out more DQ slips when the S&Ts don't write to the rule. Laura will probably chime in but this is what she told me:She was DQd for a "hesitation" in the turn.She asked if that meant the turn was non-continuous and was told no,she asked if she kicked too much to the wall and was told no,she showed the judge the rule book and asked what her infraction was and was told "it is not in the rule book it is on this card" and the judge held up a card she had around her neck saying the new clarification of the rules was on the card.(I do not believe she allowed Laura to look at the card.)Then Laura said"I have a video of the race can we review that" to see what if anything she did wrong.She was told no,that is not relevant.(Laura,if I have any details wrong please correct me,)

OK - to clear this up for me. On breaststroke, can you do 1 dolfin kick before the arms do a pullout? OR must you do it in the middle of the pullout ?

Breaststroke DQs Another occurrence (that sometimes gets a DQ but usually does not) that also goes against the written rule...the last strokes before a wall. The breaststroke is unique in that it is a cycle stroke...pull, then kick, pull, then kick etc. However, relatively common (ie, not 1 in a thousand) at the finish as the wall is faced 'early', many (not most) swimmers put in a double pull (with no intervening kick). This rule caused me to have my first DQ in 50 years of Beautiful Stroke swimming. It occurred at a SCM meet about 4 years ago on the third length in a 400 IM. I was not aware that they had even made this rule, but remembered seeing international swimmers sort of gliding into a turn a few months before and thinking "why don't they take another stroke?" This would have been the first Top 10 for me in quite a few years, as I had not been competing much up until then. To top it off, the official was telling me right after the event when I was climbing right back on the block for a mixed relay. I have just begun playing with a dolphin on my turn, and am currently doing it as my arms are halfway through the pullout, but not sure if it's worth my time for the uncertainty.

Has anyone challenged a DQ with video in either masters or USA Swimming? To the best of my knowledge, "instant replay" is not permitted in the USMS nor the USA Swimming rulebook. The NCAA rulebook allows for video replay for validation of relay exchanges, and that is it. I believe FINA allows for video technology to be used in a backup timing capacity. (I.e., cameras pointing at the finish wall in case touchpads fail.) Note that anywhere video is creeping into the rules, it has always been the case that any video technology used must be installed by the facility/meet host, and setup specifically for that purpose. I.e., you can never show up with a video camera that your friend had in the stands. (The theory behind officiating is a level playing field.... any video technology that you get to lean on must be available for all swimmers in the field, and all races in the meet.) -Rick

The theory behind officiating is a level playing field.... any video technology that you get to lean on must be available for all swimmers in the field, and all races in the meet. True. Also, in many cases it might be hard to verify that the video was of the specific event/turn/dive or other instance in question.