Conventional and EVF can be one in the same unless a conventional swimming stroke means purposely dropping your elbow. The pulling pattern should never be straight back because the longer and the harder the hand moves backward the greater reduction in drag force (negative drag coefficient). The hand must move (scull slightly) into less turbulent water so peak drag force or pulling power can be maintained. As strong swimmers begin to improve their EVF, sprinters will begin to evolve into more right angled looking strokes like Rebecca Addlington's and less like Alain Bernard's. With everything being equal, a stroke like Bernards, in my opinion, can become faster by getting his forearm/hand vertical earlier. With that being said, Bernard may have anatomical factors (weak shoulder cuff, flexibility issues, EVF strength conversion habit issues) that could prevent that EVF alteration (his coach knows best). My contention is that any swimmer who can, without compromising anatomical health, improve the length of time they can keep their hand/forearm in the vertical position and improve how early they can get their hand / forearm in a vertical position, will drop time. I think conventional (as long as it doesn’t mean purposely dropping your elbow) and EVF are the same and physical limitations and training habits create the variances from swimmer to swimmer. The fastest swimmers in the world may have different looking strokes but the winners keep their hands/forearm in the vertical position earlier and in a vertical position that produces the most power the longest. Getting your hand / forearm in a power position early and keeping it their longer, isn’t all about pulling strength, it’s more importantly about the ability to resist dropping one’s elbow. I started doing an exercise where swimmers kick 50 yards with fins, holding their arms in front of them (breathe to the side or in the front), holding an EVF position. Try it and it will show you the ability to “set-up” your stroke early (conventional or not) is more difficult than you can imagine. The pressure of simply swimming forward requires strong shoulder-cuff stabilizing muscles ( supraspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor, and subscapularis) and the above exercise will show you how weak or strong yours are. I think it’s safe to say, more often than not, swimmers don’t have the necessary shoulder cuff strength that allows them to properly “set-up” their stroke. And, let’s think about it, if you can’t keep your arm in a “set-up” position (conventional or not) for 50 yards, what are the chances of ever developing a better “set-up position until you strengthen and train to improve the muscles responsible for that position. I think isometrics and the use of surgical tubing offers the most effective way to improve shoulder-cuff strength. Email me at tomtomp@netzero.com if you’re interested in more information. Good luck, Coach T.
Former Member
tried emailing, but was returned, so post here
would like to see evidence for your comment....
The pulling pattern should never be straight back because the longer and the harder the hand moves backward the greater reduction in drag force (negative drag coefficient).
Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen specifically emphasizes straight back...for all the strokes, relying in part on the path taken by paddles/oars in a kayak/canoe/surfboard
likewise for mr smooth....http://swimsmooth.com/
You'll go nowhere pushing against water already moving backwards. However, since water has inertia (Newton's 1st Law), there is a very brief period when the water will push you ahead (Newton's 3rd Law) before accelerating backwards (Newton's 2nd Law), and this is the period that actually propels you ahead. Extending the duration of this very brief period by "duffeking" the hands (like a canoe or kayak paddle) seeking "stillwater," is the goal.:2cents:
I like using Karlyn's "surfboard" swimming idea but even she does not pull straight back (the sculling is much less pronounced but it's there). I gave my video of her to someone who hasn't returned it so I can't tell you what part of the video shows the sculling. As a rower myself (novice) I know that oars follow an eliptical pattern and the power phase is when they are entering, in and exiting the vertical phase. The eliptical pattern to some degree, mimics the pulling pattern of Alain Bernard. So, as for the evidence, I have never seen anyone pull straight backward so the only evidence I have is that I have none. I think you can try or find someone who is hyper-flexible that could get very close but I don't think anyone of note swims like that. Karlyn Pipes and Rebecca Addlington are the best at a stroke that looks straight backward
(because of the earliest vertical forearm I've ever seen) but even they move their hand to and away from the mid-line. I don't know if this answers your question?
tried emailing, but was returned, so post here
would like to see evidence for your comment....
The pulling pattern should never be straight back because the longer and the harder the hand moves backward the greater reduction in drag force (negative drag coefficient).
Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen specifically emphasizes straight back...for all the strokes, relying in part on the path taken by paddles/oars in a kayak/canoe/surfboard
likewise for mr smooth....http://swimsmooth.com/
"Dropping the Elbow is a flaw coach T. Comparing EVF with a flawed technique is missing the point in my opinion, and with all due respect." I agree totally, a dropped elbow is a flaw. I thought that some people were calling a premature drop of the elbow a "conventional" freestyle. EVF is the opposite of a dropped elbow. As far a body roll is concerned an early catch is okay for any body position unless of course it hurts you. So an early catch is better than a late one, right?
You've seen my stroke already?
How would you qualify it? EVF or Dropped Elbow?
Here. Rapidly. EVF could (in my mind) stand for Early or Exaggerated vertical forearm. In both cases, what distinguishes from conventional stroke is that the steepest vertical forearm position is achieve very early in the pull phase.
Some level of vertical forearm position is achieved somewhere (as opposed to as early as possible) during more conventional free style.
Dropping the Elbow is a flaw coach T. Comparing EVF with a flawed technique is missing the point in my opinion, and with all due respect.
I am sure you can easily understand the nuance between the two, since as far as I can recall, you were the one suggesting this great clip on EVF, a clip that is still unmatched in my mind.... (for your own reference YouTube- ‪How to swim with a High Elbow Catch/EVF - Total Immersion Israel‬ )
The element, for me, not talking theory here but applied theory, that distingishes EVF from conventional the most in this clip Coach T is this recommendation to wait for flatter body position before bending the arm.
Wait for flatter body position before bending the arm has a severe impact on my free style timing, and is forcing me to perform massive volumes of 1-arm drill (talking 400-600m per arm at the time of writing this post). So don't tell me there's no diff between this and my old way of swimming, which didn't involve dropped elbow at all.
Hope it helps clarifying.
Well, I would rather state that any swimmer who, as a result of improving EVF, can improve on either the distance per stroke and/or stroke rate will drop time. Because let's keep it clear that time is function of these two. So your medicine has to have a favorable impact in these areas.
just took 2 clinics with Karlyn and I focused on this matter at length, including pointing out that Phelps pulls straight back until his forearm is vertical down then sculls in and ant then out.
she said, boldly...straight back is what she is about. she tried Phelps' style but it did not work for her.
as I remember, Lazek and Thorpe also go straight back
the more one accelerates their pull during the stroke, the less any postulated decrease in drag the water should occur....nags me that after all these years we don't have more evidence on such matters other than he does it or she doesn't, or vice versa
of course, one size, eg stroke path, undoubtedly does not fit all
I have an experiment you can try at the pool: drag your hand through water at constant velocity and see whether the water stops pushing on your hand once you have "accelerated" it.
If you pick up a handful of water and throw it through the air you can use Newtons second law to calculate forces because the density/viscosity of air is low enough to ignore. If you attempt to "throw" a handful of water underwater the results are entirely different and F=ma will be entirely inadequate to model it.
en.wikipedia.org/.../Viscosityen.wikipedia.org/.../Newton's_laws_of_motion
As discussed in another thread your body is accelerating forward during the pull, your hand needs to accelerate backwards a like amount or it will actually be decelerating relative to the water.
The fact that your hand doesn't usually move in a straight line backwards can be adequately explained by the geometry of your limbs and your roll. It is impossible to move your elbow in a straight line relative to your shoulder, the elbow will always fall somewhere on the surface of a sphere centered on you shoulder. Yes, that is a slight simplification given the mobility of the shoulder but in the gross picture it holds. Assuming that all movements have some propulsive rationale will lead you into the lift force nonsense that prevailed for a couple of decades in the swimming literature. Propulsive forces actually drop during sculling motions in freestyle.
Conventional and EVF can be one in the same unless a conventional swimming stroke means purposely dropping your elbow. You've seen my stroke already?
How would you qualify it? EVF or Dropped Elbow?
Here. Rapidly. EVF could (in my mind) stand for Early or Exaggerated vertical forearm. In both cases, what distinguishes from conventional stroke is that the steepest vertical forearm position is achieve very early in the pull phase.
Some level of vertical forearm position is achieved somewhere (as opposed to as early as possible) during more conventional free style.
Dropping the Elbow is a flaw coach T. Comparing EVF with a flawed technique is missing the point in my opinion, and with all due respect.
I am sure you can easily understand the nuance between the two, since as far as I can recall, you were the one suggesting this great clip on EVF, a clip that is still unmatched in my mind.... (for your own reference YouTube- ‪How to swim with a High Elbow Catch/EVF - Total Immersion Israel‬ )
The element, for me, not talking theory here but applied theory, that distingishes EVF from conventional the most in this clip Coach T is this recommendation to wait for flatter body position before bending the arm.
Wait for flatter body position before bending the arm has a severe impact on my free style timing, and is forcing me to perform massive volumes of 1-arm drill (talking 400-600m per arm at the time of writing this post). So don't tell me there's no diff between this and my old way of swimming, which didn't involve dropped elbow at all.
Hope it helps clarifying.
My contention is that any swimmer who can, without compromising anatomical health, improve the length of time they can keep their hand/forearm in the vertical position and improve how early they can get their hand / forearm in a vertical position, will drop time. Well, I would rather state that any swimmer who, as a result of improving EVF, can improve on either the distance per stroke and/or stroke rate will drop time. Because let's keep it clear that time is function of these two. So your medicine has to have a favorable impact in these areas.
So an early catch is better than a late one, right?
Well, not according to this clip you once referred to in a thread you created a few months ago.
And also not based on the mileage I've been doing in tuning my stroke into EVF one.
The later you wait to catch, the more your body ends up flat whilst catching, the less of a burden it is for your shoulders. Theory explained in your clip can be summarized in this simple sentence.
The heart of what I am trying to explain here is found around minute 2:15. But it starts at minue 1:50. In this section of the clip, you can see that the animated swimmer almost wait for upward body rotation to take the catch. When I swim what I'd call conventional free, I definitely catch on downward body rotation.
Remember this attempt to bust a Myth by Gary Hall Sr? Where he proposes that most power during the pulling phase of free style is being generated in Front Quadrant.
That is the distinction here. Most power during the free is undoubtedly generated on upward body rotation. If this occurs when the forearm is still in FQ, then I got very little doubt about the validity of Gary's statement. That said though, not everyone swim this way, and so depending on where you are at (as a swimmer) in your pulling path when upward (powerful) body rotation occurs, this peak power will be shift either more in the front, or more in the back.
My work these days is all about finding the optimal timing. The optimal balance. My methodology is simple: Tons of one arm drill, breathing on each side. I did 1600 1-arm the other day 800m on left arm (continuous) 800m on right. It is this sort of implication that is involved in trying to develop this stroke that you seem to enjoy promoting. From theory to applied theory, there's a gap my dear.
I think that early vertical forearm is all about early and vertical. Laying on the arm doesn't create forward inertia. Maybe I'm missing something. I like Karlyn Pipes, Thorpe and Rebecca Addlington's stroke and although everyone can't swim like those three I try to get my swimmers to "set-up" their strokes like them (early, vertical and without much sculling). I hope this closes the gap.
Well, not according to this clip you once referred to in a thread you created a few months ago.
And also not based on the mileage I've been doing in tuning my stroke into EVF one.
The later you wait to catch, the more your body ends up flat whilst catching, the less of a burden it is for your shoulders. Theory explained in your clip can be summarized in this simple sentence.
The heart of what I am trying to explain here is found around minute 2:15. But it starts at minue 1:50. In this section of the clip, you can see that the animated swimmer almost wait for upward body rotation to take the catch. When I swim what I'd call conventional free, I definitely catch on downward body rotation.
Remember this attempt to bust a Myth by Gary Hall Sr? Where he proposes that most power during the pulling phase of free style is being generated in Front Quadrant.
That is the distinction here. Most power during the free is undoubtedly generated on upward body rotation. If this occurs when the forearm is still in FQ, then I got very little doubt about the validity of Gary's statement. That said though, not everyone swim this way, and so depending on where you are at (as a swimmer) in your pulling path when upward (powerful) body rotation occurs, this peak power will be shift either more in the front, or more in the back.
My work these days is all about finding the optimal timing. The optimal balance. My methodology is simple: Tons of one arm drill, breathing on each side. I did 1600 1-arm the other day 800m on left arm (continuous) 800m on right. It is this sort of implication that is involved in trying to develop this stroke that you seem to enjoy promoting. From theory to applied theory, there's a gap my dear.
