Conventional and EVF can be one in the same unless a conventional swimming stroke means purposely dropping your elbow. The pulling pattern should never be straight back because the longer and the harder the hand moves backward the greater reduction in drag force (negative drag coefficient). The hand must move (scull slightly) into less turbulent water so peak drag force or pulling power can be maintained. As strong swimmers begin to improve their EVF, sprinters will begin to evolve into more right angled looking strokes like Rebecca Addlington's and less like Alain Bernard's. With everything being equal, a stroke like Bernards, in my opinion, can become faster by getting his forearm/hand vertical earlier. With that being said, Bernard may have anatomical factors (weak shoulder cuff, flexibility issues, EVF strength conversion habit issues) that could prevent that EVF alteration (his coach knows best). My contention is that any swimmer who can, without compromising anatomical health, improve the length of time they can keep their hand/forearm in the vertical position and improve how early they can get their hand / forearm in a vertical position, will drop time. I think conventional (as long as it doesn’t mean purposely dropping your elbow) and EVF are the same and physical limitations and training habits create the variances from swimmer to swimmer. The fastest swimmers in the world may have different looking strokes but the winners keep their hands/forearm in the vertical position earlier and in a vertical position that produces the most power the longest. Getting your hand / forearm in a power position early and keeping it their longer, isn’t all about pulling strength, it’s more importantly about the ability to resist dropping one’s elbow. I started doing an exercise where swimmers kick 50 yards with fins, holding their arms in front of them (breathe to the side or in the front), holding an EVF position. Try it and it will show you the ability to “set-up” your stroke early (conventional or not) is more difficult than you can imagine. The pressure of simply swimming forward requires strong shoulder-cuff stabilizing muscles ( supraspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor, and subscapularis) and the above exercise will show you how weak or strong yours are. I think it’s safe to say, more often than not, swimmers don’t have the necessary shoulder cuff strength that allows them to properly “set-up” their stroke. And, let’s think about it, if you can’t keep your arm in a “set-up” position (conventional or not) for 50 yards, what are the chances of ever developing a better “set-up position until you strengthen and train to improve the muscles responsible for that position. I think isometrics and the use of surgical tubing offers the most effective way to improve shoulder-cuff strength. Email me at tomtomp@netzero.com if you’re interested in more information. Good luck, Coach T.
Former Member
I think that early vertical forearm is all about early and vertical.
I think it’s safe to say, more often than not, swimmers don’t have the necessary shoulder cuff strength that allows them to properly “set-up” their stroke.
Then how can EVF be applied in practice?
The later you wait to catch, the more your body ends up flat whilst catching, the less of a burden it is for your shoulders.
Essentially you are describing a catch up stroke, are you not?
Then how can EVF be applied in practice?
Essentially you are describing a catch up stroke, are you not?
A catch-up stoke has more than a moment where nothing is creating propulsion but the kick. Although Thorpe has a more than a catch-up stroke than Pipes and Addlington, I don't like his (because of that habit) as much as Addlington's and then Pipes. I believe that when the hand is leaving the power phase (during the second and at the end of the third quadrant) the other hand begins the catch. It's a little quirky when you watch Thorpe and even Phelps, when they take a breath they look a little like a catch-up stroke but when they're not breathing it's more of a mirror image stroke (that's what I try to teach).
In practice, the development of EVF muscle memory through isometrics (dryland / strength) exercises and EVF swimming drills (done everyday) is my suggestion. Teach these skills early and good things will happen later. Hope this answers your question. I have a lot of videos on youtube that may help clarify these points. Good Luck, Coach T.
Is the vertical part of EVF important? Or is the important part that you get your forearm perpendicular to the direction of movement? I was playing with my catch today to see if I can catch a little bit earlier, but I can't really imagine trying to actually get it vertical anytime soon. Browsing around on youtube I'm not seeing very many elite swimmers using an EVF as shown in the video I posted earlier. Even Thorpe in his 400m races in Sydney doesn't come close to vertical with his left arm and doesn't keep his elbow near the surface on either arm.
Don't drop your elbow, work with what God gave you and do your best. I hope I'm not going from one extreme to the other. I think my 23 videos are very consitent but that's subjective too. The end of the TI video seems to be a catch-up stroke but if you say it's not, I won't argue. Hope you keep doing what you're doing and have fun. Good luck, Coach T.
Gull, based on the process I am currently going through, I can tell you that the recommendations issued by minute 1:50 of the EVF clip produced by TI Israel is NOT to develop a catch up stroke.
Again there, CoachT is going from one extreme to the other.
The challenge is to achieve a balance between FQ and RQ propulsion.
Delaying the catch a tiny little bit won't make you a catch up stroke swimmer at all. Based on the information found in this important clip, it helps you acheiving more of vertical forearm position without putting your shoulder articulations at risks.
Again there, it's worth to mention again the two main recommendations to do this:
1. Delay the catch a bit so that the body becomes flatter when you bend the elbow to achieve EVF
2. Pull slightly side way, not underneath your body
Practice this. Just a little bit and you'll feel (like I do) that it's far easier to give a lot of Vertical component to your catch.
And you may realize, like I did, that it screws your timing up enough so that you need to rebuild it differently. Of course, that depends on what your timing was at the first place. Mine was involving taking a catch earlier, relative to body rotation. I used to catch on downward body rotation, now I wait a bit.
It's worth categorizing swimmers a bit here. Someone that can hardly hold 1:45 per 100 over 1500 probably won't see much difference, because such a swimmer is probably not using body rotation to add power to the stroke anyway. But when you can for instance hold 1:30 per 100 (which isn't that fast after all), chances are that your stroke is built around this body rotation power. In such a case, change in timings can sometimes be fairly critical. At least it's the case for me.
I think it's worth the effort though.
Is the vertical part of EVF important? Or is the important part that you get your forearm perpendicular to the direction of movement? I was playing with my catch today to see if I can catch a little bit earlier, but I can't really imagine trying to actually get it vertical anytime soon. Browsing around on youtube I'm not seeing very many elite swimmers using an EVF as shown in the video I posted earlier. Even Thorpe in his 400m races in Sydney doesn't come close to vertical with his left arm and doesn't keep his elbow near the surface on either arm.
I think the angle of the arm will vary from swimmer to swimmer. I believe that "setting-up" the stroke by not dropping the elbow in the first quadrant is extremely important. I think that the early vertical position of the forearm allows the hand to get in the best propulsive position and keeping it in the most effective propulsive position longer is better.
I hope this closes the gap.
If there's anything that I may add at this point, is that no talk can close the gap. Just lots of practice.
Theory won't get me fast. Applied theory will.
Makes sense?
Essentially you are describing a catch up stroke, are you not? Gull, based on the process I am currently going through, I can tell you that the recommendations issued by minute 1:50 of the EVF clip produced by TI Israel is NOT to develop a catch up stroke.
Again there, CoachT is going from one extreme to the other.
The challenge is to achieve a balance between FQ and RQ propulsion.
Delaying the catch a tiny little bit won't make you a catch up stroke swimmer at all. Based on the information found in this important clip, it helps you acheiving more of vertical forearm position without putting your shoulder articulations at risks.
Again there, it's worth to mention again the two main recommendations to do this:
1. Delay the catch a bit so that the body becomes flatter when you bend the elbow to achieve EVF
2. Pull slightly side way, not underneath your body
Practice this. Just a little bit and you'll feel (like I do) that it's far easier to give a lot of Vertical component to your catch.
And you may realize, like I did, that it screws your timing up enough so that you need to rebuild it differently. Of course, that depends on what your timing was at the first place. Mine was involving taking a catch earlier, relative to body rotation. I used to catch on downward body rotation, now I wait a bit.
It's worth categorizing swimmers a bit here. Someone that can hardly hold 1:45 per 100 over 1500 probably won't see much difference, because such a swimmer is probably not using body rotation to add power to the stroke anyway. But when you can for instance hold 1:30 per 100 (which isn't that fast after all), chances are that your stroke is built around this body rotation power. In such a case, change in timings can sometimes be fairly critical. At least it's the case for me.
I think it's worth the effort though.
Even Thorpe in his 400m races in Sydney doesn't come close to vertical with his left arm and doesn't keep his elbow near the surface on either arm. Is he breathing on right side? I'd bet my house that he was.
If you want to better understand the constraint here, perform the following very simple exercise: One-arm drill breathing on the non stroking side. Try to achieve EVF you'll see.
I am a natural left side breather. I so far has accumulated around 3k of Right-Arm drill breathing left. Did another 600 tonight alone (no work on the left arm). That's what I call applying the theory. This is where all the talk, for me, starts to make sense.
**edit**
Lindsay, I just took a look at the clip. He keeps changing breathing side, as if he was expected his biggest opponent to be physically left to him. And, I agree with you. Seemed to be little weaker on the left side. And not a timing thing it seems. As if the pressure level was such on catch (which is somehow normal at this level) that Vertical was too hard too sustain.
But, he definitely, based on his timing and a significant level of vertical, qualifies as being an EVF swimming, at least in my opinion.
Thanks for continuing questioning about how to define EVF vs conventional free. Still not that clear to me.
I think the angle of the arm will vary from swimmer to swimmer. I believe that "setting-up" the stroke by not dropping the elbow in the first quadrant is extremely important. I think that the early vertical position of the forearm allows the hand to get in the best propulsive position and keeping it in the most effective propulsive position longer is better.
Hi Coach,
I agree that setting up the stroke is important and that it works for me when I've tried it going at a moderate pace. But the question I have is regarding trying to go fast using this technique. Perhaps I just haven't done enough speed work lately (I haven't, I don't have a meet for a while and I've taken my butterfly apart, but that is another story ... ) but when I try to sprint while setting my stroke up as you describe, it feels awkward as all getout.
When you "plant" your forearm into the water, it takes some time. Then, when your hip starts its rotation and you accelerate your arm, it also seems to take some time. In a 50, you want more power cycles per second and this seems to work against that.
It could be that I'm just not used to using this style of stroke at maximum effort/turnover. If I can take the fewest number of strokes at the highest stroke rate possible, that should be optimal, I'd think. What about us twitchy sprinters?
I have an experiment you can try at the pool: drag your hand through water at constant velocity and see whether the water stops pushing on your hand once you have "accelerated" it.
If you pick up a handful of water and throw it through the air you can use Newtons second law to calculate forces because the density/viscosity of air is low enough to ignore. If you attempt to "throw" a handful of water underwater the results are entirely different and F=ma will be entirely inadequate to model it.
en.wikipedia.org/.../Viscosityen.wikipedia.org/.../Newton's_laws_of_motion
As discussed in another thread your body is accelerating forward during the pull, your hand needs to accelerate backwards a like amount or it will actually be decelerating relative to the water.
The fact that your hand doesn't usually move in a straight line backwards can be adequately explained by the geometry of your limbs and your roll. It is impossible to move your elbow in a straight line relative to your shoulder, the elbow will always fall somewhere on the surface of a sphere centered on you shoulder. Yes, that is a slight simplification given the mobility of the shoulder but in the gross picture it holds. Assuming that all movements have some propulsive rationale will lead you into the lift force nonsense that prevailed for a couple of decades in the swimming literature. Propulsive forces actually drop during sculling motions in freestyle.
I think you're looking in the wrong coordinate system -- F=ma is fine for describing fluid motion:
en.wikipedia.org/.../Navier–Stokes_equations
Those are actually a = F/m, but it's the same deal. I try to pull straight back, though for reasons you outline my hand doesn't travel in a straight line. But I don't think it matters, just don't collapse your elbow and your hand should find clean water (IMHO).
By the way, there is no such animal as a negative drag coefficient. Drag is due to the magnitude of the difference in velocity, the direction it has is always in the direction of the relative motion. The drag coefficient is the number you multiply the answer you got (assuming everything is a flat plate) to get the answer you should have gotten. It is a positive definite fudge factor.
