The Sprint Free Lane

I don't kick with a board very often, i usually sit on them between sets. Last scy season I did a few fast 50 flutter kicks with a board, from a belly flop dive from the side, one stroke into the wall open turn wearing a full B70, think I went 27 on my best ones in college i went 28.0 a few times for a 50 kick from a push with a board Eddie Reese told me Ian Crocker kicked a 50 scy in 24.6 from a push and Garrett Weber Gale during 2008 Olympic Training Camp after trials kicked 50 LCM in 27.3 believe it was with a board, not sure how he started or what sort of suit he wore. Shaun Jordan did a 50 kick with a board from a dive in 23.3 right before or after NCAAs in the early 90's Gary Hall was a very fast kicker and could kick a 100 scy around 55, think Crocker did a 100 in 54 Crikey - 8 more seconds...?!? I know you dive and flip w/the board sometimes Ande - what about from a push and one stroke at the turn? Don't say 27 or I'm drivin' to Austin.

your goal is AFAP world class male swimmers or kickers can flutter kick a 50 SCM with a board under 30 So what's the goal for SCM? I don't have a scy pool to work out in... 30? 33?

So if you can't kick sub 30(33)'s scm then there's probably more sprint speed on the table with kick improvement alone?

AFAP: so the answer to my original question is... there is no upper bound or end goal for flutter kick?I think what he's saying is that you'll need to set your own goals, and he's given you an upper bound (the elite swimmer reference). Here's an idea- maybe this would help. Ian Crocker went a 21.44 in the scm 50 free- that converts to a 19.21 in scy. If he's kicking a 50 scy free in 24.6, then his best kick time is approximately 28% slower than his best swim time. Let's say he met his goal here. Another data point. I went a 22.44 in the scy 50 free recently, and I've been hovering around 35 for my best kick time. So my best kick time is approximately 55% slower than my best swim time. Clearly, there is some room for improvement in my kick. If I had as good of a kick relative to my freestyle, I should be going a 28.7 for a 50 kick. So there's one way to set a goal based on your specific ability. :2cents:

So what's the goal for SCM? I don't have a scy pool to work out in... 30? 33?

your goal is AFAP world class male swimmers or kickers can flutter kick a 50 SCM with a board under 30 AFAP: so the answer to my original question is... there is no upper bound or end goal for flutter kick?

I think what he's saying is that you'll need to set your own goals, and he's given you an upper bound (the elite swimmer reference). Here's an idea- maybe this would help. Ian Crocker went a 21.44 in the scm 50 free- that converts to a 19.21 in scy. If he's kicking a 50 scy free in 24.6, then his best kick time is approximately 28% slower than his best swim time. Let's say he met his goal here. Another data point. I went a 22.44 in the scy 50 free recently, and I've been hovering around 35 for my best kick time. So my best kick time is approximately 55% slower than my best swim time. Clearly, there is some room for improvement in my kick. If I had as good of a kick relative to my freestyle, I should be going a 28.7 for a 50 kick. So there's one way to set a goal based on your specific ability. :2cents: Sweet, i'll use that formula then. I don't think i'm too far off the 28% goal at present, but then again i never time 50 sprint kicks either so we'll see.

I can't help but to reply to this thread!! Around here, sprinting and masters swimming are a total contradiction in terms! I've been blessed to have coached some amazing sprinters (5'8" M - 20.4/44.8; 6'0" F 23.0/50.7 - Both in the 1990's), and one of the things that was the most successful was a bit I "borrowed" from Richard Quick called a sprint circuit. At the time, we had the luxury of having a 6 lane pool and a diving well. We would do 4 stations that we would focus on trying to transition power on land to power on water. 4 minutes per station, 2 or 3 X thru depending on time of the season: Station 1: Vasa swim bench - High as possible and max # of reps - :45 on; :15 off; :45 on; switch stations Station 2: Sprint widths (~15yd) - No-breathers (If fly or free) on :30. If ***, no underwater pullouts Station 3: Stretch cords on land - stroke specific. Max Correct Reps per :30 - :30 on/ :30 off Station 4: Long Strech cords in the water - Resisted/Assisted 50's on 1:00. If you can't make it to the wall in :25, turn and sprint back! I've seen a few variations that some of my former swimmers who are now coaching have made to this... Sprinting with Ankle Weights Sprinting with Snorkels Sprinting with Boxing Gloves Sprinting with Buckets or Full Milk Jugs tied to ankle bands Sprinting with small paddles I think with each of these, an important component would be to tie back to the idea of what it feels like to go "au Natural" and with no gear again. Another concept I am taken with is the work that Mike Bottom and his crew have been doing for the past several year at Michigan/Race Club/Cal. I am just recently starting to take a deeper dive into the straight arm free and the dryland ideas they use. Seeing the way that Nathan Adrian uses that as a weapon over and over, it's hard to deny something very positive about it. Might want to take a look at what they're doing at Club Wolverine... FB: www.facebook.com/ClubWolverine Site: www.clubwolverineelite.com/.../Home.html Me personally, I am still trying to channel my inner sprinter after numerous youth years at a yardage warehouse as a mid-distance freestyle/IM'er. I have possibly bulked up a bit too much, but I still think I can translate it to speed since I can still hit a low 22/high 21 at the tender age of 41. :cane: The piece that I very loudly agree with Ande on is the emphasis on Kicking. Notice that there is no "FINS" in "KICKING". I admit that there is a place for it with OCCASIONAL use, but most all masters swimmers I see are unable/unwilling to develop a solid kick without fins, and then have the audacity to be stunned when their times stagnate or go slower... duh! Don't forget to REST! Let your body build back up after breaking it down between workouts.. Go do a few easier distance workouts between sprint sessions so you have enough endurance to handle more sprinting! What other ideas are out there that people find helpful towards a faster sprint time???

Where is the optimal depth for sprint kicks? It's really hard to keep the feet completely submerged. I've always been told the heels can be out but feet under the surface. Is this still correct? Whatever makes you go fastest FM. Experiment during the kick sets. I am much faster when my entire foot is out of the water vs staying entirely submerged. Not being a good kicker and not being good at regularly doing kick sets, I have not found out if there is a more optimal kick height.

Whatever makes you go fastest FM. Experiment during the kick sets. I am much faster when my entire foot is out of the water vs staying entirely submerged. Not being a good kicker and not being good at regularly doing kick sets, I have not found out if there is a more optimal kick height. This is actually a tough question.. My traditional rule of thumb is to get the tip of the heel at or just above the surface where you hear a "ripping" sound effect. I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water - less resistance, but also less water to apply force to and propel yourself against.. Of course, a lot of this may just go right out the window when race time comes. Many sprinters have a VERY high kick that I question a bit for those exact reasons. All ties to body positioning.. If the kick is to low or high, then the body is likely in an incline or decline, and resisting position - not cool. On those same lines - I believe that there is propulsive force in both stages (upbeat and downbeat) of the kick and that equal importance should be paid to it. Put an equal amount of effort and force on both top and bottom (upward and downward) of the foot movements. If you're doing it right, you'll feel it in your butt, hamstrings, and calves, as well as the traditional quad stresses.