On another thread the question was raised how many people have had swims that did not get reported to Top Ten for what ever reason.Please post here if you have had that experience(venting is allowed.)
I have been swimming Masters since 1974 and my USMS experiences have been overwhelmingly positive and I want to thank all the officials and organizers.None the less accidents happen and I lost top ten swims(one a zone record) at 2 different meets when pool measurements showed the pool was short(once after a remodeling,which lead to the USMS measurement rule,and once when the bulk head slipped.In both cases the pool was 1 cm short.)I had another meet where the results were not reported,but thanks to diligent work from our Top Ten chair(thank you Mary Sweat)the results were recovered.
So who else has lost results.
I want to repeat that I am NOT being critical of the meet directors and certainly not with Mary Beth who is wonderful.In both my lost swim meets the directors were more upset than I was(but I was upset.)I'm just curious how often this does happen.
In 20 years of masters competitions, I can think of at least two or three meets that didn't get counted and I lost TT times. I lost eleven top tens in a single zone meet due to meet director not submitting them. Our LMSC had chronic problems with this particular meet director and stopped holding meets at his venue.
Most recent problem was last year. It was a new meet and times were submitted to the USMS meet database, but not to top ten. They mistakenly thought the one submission covered both of their bases. The LMSC TT person has advised them and don't think it will be a problem in the future.
Other meets have not been submitted (Auburn last year comes to mind) but I swam faster later in the season so wasn't affected. Others, like Fortress, used Auburn as a SCY taper meet and weren't as fortunate.
While it can be frustrating, especially if it's painful race like a 1650 or 400 IM, I just look at the list and figure out where I would have placed. With the number of meets dwindling each season, I'm simply grateful to have opportunities to race and appreciate the meet directors who are willing to put meets on. It can be a thankless job.
None the less accidents happen and I lost top ten swims(one a zone record) at 2 different meets when pool measurements showed the pool was short(once after a remodeling,which lead to the USMS measurement rule,and once when the bulk head slipped.In both cases the pool was 1 cm short.)
Since I devote a decent bit of time to this issue, this post may come off as a bit defensive and I apologize, since I find absolutely no fault in Allen's tone, post or this thread. In fact, as the new chair of the Records and Tabulations Committee, I am grateful to Allen for starting this thread since I would like to help fix problems.
But I would like to point out a distinction here that may be useful. Allen points to results that were lost because the course was too short. USMS is fairly strict regarding pool measurements (compared to USA-S) and, although it is certainly a shame to lose TT swims, I think it is actually the correct call. In the instances Allen describes (where the measurements were MADE but the pool was too short), the failing would probably be at the aquatics facility staff level, though the TT recorder and the meet director certainly need to be on top of things and should check the pool beforehand just in case it is possible to make adjustments (eg, position the bulkhead properly).
To incidents to illustrate: the case where the Stanford pool at World Championships was found to be too short (and had to be altered before competition began. And that embarrassing incident a while back where a masters swimmer -- with his own laser measuring device -- at a USA-S meet drew attention to the fact that the pool was short...and several USA-S swimmers lost OT qualifying times as a result.
In any event, when reporting your issues, it would be helpful to me if you explain what went wrong, as far as you know. That's the only way things can improve.
Informational items: it might be helpful to be familiar with the Records & Tabulations Guide to Operations, which is here:
www.usms.org/.../
In particular, I'd like to point out a few common misunderstandings:
-- the Top Ten lists here and the Meet Results Database Rankings (known by a variety of names) here are not the same thing.
-- the Top Ten recorder in an LMSC has a duty to submit results from ALL registered swimmers in meets that occur in his/her LMSC. That includes USMS sanctioned, recognized or USA-S sanctioned meets. You have to be registered at the time of the swim, but you don't have to be registered in the LMSC in which the meet occurs.
Note that TT Rercorders or Meet Directors are not REQUIRED (though they are encouraged) to submit results to the Meet Results Database. This is often a source of confusion. I submit all the results from my LMSC, but I've had many calls from swimmers who have competed in other LMSCs where they don't submit the results. They worry that means the times won't be submitted for TT (actually, they usually confuse the two and assume that the Meet Results Database becomes "hardened" at the end of the season into the TT).
-- the TT recorder is NOT responsible to submit the times for members of his/her LMSC that occur outside the LMSC, unless it is in a foreign (FINA-member sanctioned) meet. If you swim in a USMS meet in another LMSC, it is the responsibility of that LMSC's TT Recorder to submit your time.
-- the TT recorder should be aware of USMS sanctioned/recognized meets in his/her own LMSC, though it never hurts to verify that. But do NOT assume that is true USA-S meets or foreign meets. As the GTO says of these types of meets, "it is the responsibility of the swimmer to bring back the results and documentation and to request that the Top Ten Recorder in his or her local LMSC submit the times."
Particularly in the case of USA-S meets, do not assume that the pool has been certified the proper length; as I mentioned, historically USA-S standards have been more lax than those of USMS though I think that may be changing. It is not a bad idea to check with your TT recorder before the meet happens.
-- USMS maintains a list of pools whose lengths have been certified. Your TT Recorder should know which pools in your LMSC have been certified. If the pool is "permanent" (walls only), then initial certification is all you need. But if a pool has movable bulkheads, the length has to be checked for each swim session. That's a pain, but at least this verification only requires measurements in 3 lanes, unlike initial length certification.
So: fire away. I'll do my best to answer any questions (and I'm sure there are other TT Recorders reading this who may do the same).
Is this something new?
No.
The swimmer has to request it, provide proof of times (eg a link to a meet results file), and is responsible for pool measurement verification if that is needed. If the swimmer sets a national record, s/he has to do all that paperwork too (obviously with assistance from the Meet Director). You can't set WRs unless the meet is dual sanctioned.
You shouldn't have to do much work, though it is a pain to create/submit CL2 file because (obviously) most are not masters swimmers.
Here in Virginia, the USA-S backup MM files are now read-only so I can't do any tricks like create a temporary fictional masters team for all USMS members and export the results from that team (then change them back to their real teams). But sometimes they'll email me an editable copy. If it only a few swimmers, it is faster to just create a meet file from scratch.
I just had this happen this past October at the Crimson Tide Sprint Cup (yep it's in the Dixie Zone.) The meet results PDF file is posted. But the meet times are not in the results database. I've tried to work with the MD and and LMSC TT chair on four different occasions via phone and/or email to no avail. The CL2 meet file that has been submitted (twice) contained NO data.
Chris,
Rich Abrahams mentioned the problem of submitting split requests. As a meet director, I need a system to keep track of split requests and instructions on how to show them in the results. When sometone hands me a split request and I am dealing with other issues and trying to swim in the meet, I have a great fear of forgetting to follow through. Also, without your help on how to include splits requests in the results, I would have been lost when I prepared the final results for submission.
At nationals, Walt Reid was checking all lead-off splits. I was wary when I made a request and he said not to worry. The split never showed up in the Meet Results Data Base, but did show up the final Top10, as promised.
Thanks, Julie. The way you explained makes sense and should be easy.
The last part, however, bothers me. Do you mean we shouldn't check for lead-off splits unless they are requested?
As a meet director, I need a system to keep track of split requests and instructions on how to show them in the results. When some one hands me a split request and I am dealing with other issues and trying to swim in the meet, I have a great fear of forgetting to follow through. Also, without your help on how to include splits requests in the results, I would have been lost when I prepared the final results for submission.
It seems like there are two (connected) issues: keeping track of split requests and submitting them. Usually the MD just tracks them and gives me the list, and (as Julie mentioned in her post) I take care of them by adding them as new events in the MM file, which I then submit to the Meet Results Database and use to prepare my TT submission. But in the recent meet you had to do it b/c you used the latest version of Meet Manager and I couldn't read the file.
It does bring up a larger issue: who should control meet submissions, the meet directors or the TT Recorders? Or does it matter? I can see arguments on either side.
On the one hand, it is nice to have TT Recorders do it since there are fewer people involved and (maybe?) less chance of errors. Once the TT Recorder knows how to submit the splits, s/he can then do it for all meets, without having to teach all MDs how to do it. The newer web-based tools (part of E2EEM) involve a little bit of a learning curve too, and -- again -- it is easier to train a few people rather than a lot of people.
But in a large LMSC with many meets, the TT Recorder might get overwhelmed.
Also just as (another) public service announcement for all those puzzled by split requests:
-- splits and relay leadoffs are NOT automatically submitted to TT (except at nationals, sometimes; always good to check).
-- splits for backstroke must be made before the race. Reason: the S&T judge must verify that you finish the split legally (with a hand touch, not a flipturn).
-- splits for relay leadoffs must be made before the race. I believe the reason is so that the S&T judge can verify that an "in water" start wasn't used by the 2nd relay person; that can falsely trigger the touchpad and ruin the split.
-- all other split requests can be made at any time during the meet, even after the swim. The reason is that all splits other than the ones given earlier are legal swims, assuming the automatic timing system was working properly. We need the split requests themselves because processing them is not automatic, it requires a little bit of extra work (such as described above).
I made a split request form that has the relevant section from the code on the bottom, with the stuff to fill out on the top.
Where do you think I got my information? :)
