P90X

I specifically wanted to know if it was technically possible to inflate muscle mass enough to achieve 2% body fat without death. I read the articles you posted, and I did not find anything to lead me to believe that essential fat, in lbs, increases with body weight. An anorexic guy (A) at 120 lbs who has an obese identical twin (B) at 300lbs. A has an essential body fat percentage of 5% and B has an essential body fat percentage of 2%. They both have essential body fat of 6 lbs, because they have identical insides. Makes sense to me. I didn't ask if you thought it was easy. How did we get to comparing 5% with 2% :confused: I thought the initial argument was if an individual could reach 2% bodyfat without getting seriously ill or dying? 120 lbs * .02= 2.4 lbs fat *.03= 3.6 lbs fat Loss of 1.2 lbs fat 300 lbs * .02= 6 lbs of fat *.03= 9 lbs of fat Loss of 3 lbs fat So once we get the numbers back on track, it's obvious you cannot compare the two. The amount of fat each would have at a given bodyweight will vary. Therefore, you have to look at what would happen when an individual at a certain bodyweight drops a percentage point. As you can see, quite a bit of fat is lost, which is detrimental when you are down to your last few lbs of fat. You cannot compare a 300lb man to one weighing 120 lbs..it's apples and oranges and whether or not they are twins is meaningless. Furthermore, you cannot gain muscle mass without gaining fat mass. What do you think visceral fat is? It's the fat wrapped around your organs. It's what causes a beer belly, for example. Your entire body composition changes the larger or smaller you get. The stress on the organs of a 300 lb man is considerably more than that of a 120 lb individual. These are all common sense basics when discussing basic physiology, easily researched online if you took the time. This is the last of my say on this, as we are just going around in circles here, and I almost think you must be trolling, because what you just wrote is plain silly. I highly recommend you take the time to read up on some of these subjects if they interest you, as there is alot of info you are misunderstanding for whatever reason.

How did we get to comparing 5% with 2% The essential body fat percentage in males is 2% to 5%. I thought the initial argument was if an individual could reach 2% bodyfat without getting seriously ill or dying? It was. If you lose bodyfat, or gain muscle mass, does your weight stay constant? Mine does not. Therefore, you have to look at what would happen when an individual at a certain bodyweight drops a percentage point. No, this is wrong. A body builder does not maintain weight while altering body composition. Weight is not a constant. You cannot compare a 300lb man to one weighing 120 lbs..it's apples and oranges and whether or not they are twins is meaningless. It is not apples and oranges. It is essential body fat. Bone marrow, connective tissue and organs. Do you have more bone marrow when you gain weight? I am saying each fully developed adult has a constant essential body fat in lbs, kilos, whatever. Not a fixed percentage. Furthermore, you cannot gain muscle mass without gaining fat mass. Really? I must be impossible, because I have dropped my bodyfat percentage while maintaining my body weight. What do you think visceral fat is? It's the fat wrapped around your organs. It's what causes a beer belly, for example. Your entire body composition changes the larger or smaller you get. The stress on the organs of a 300 lb man is considerably more than that of a 120 lb individual. These are all common sense basics when discussing basic physiology, easily researched online if you took the time. Thank you for pointing this out in an informative and non-condescending manner. Your whole point this entire time was that essential body fat is a function of body weight and is not static? Thank you Chlorine, I learned a lot from this discussion. In the future, you can be sure I will never bother you with another argument.

Yep, that caliper reading was way off. A reading of 1.9% is plain ridiculous and as already pointed out, reserved for dead people. I would love to hear the justification for this comment. Mathematically it seems possible to have a 2% bodyfat.

It was. If you lose bodyfat, or gain muscle mass, does your weight stay constant? Mine does not. No, this is wrong. A body builder does not maintain weight while altering body composition. Weight is not a constant. Really? I must be impossible, because I have dropped my bodyfat percentage while maintaining my body weight. So tell me...which one is it :confused: Sorry, I know I said I would stay away from this debate, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. So I figure I would give you a chance to clarify your misinformation. Thank you for pointing this out in an informative and non-condescending manner. Your whole point this entire time was that essential body fat is a function of body weight and is not static? Thank you Chlorine, I learned a lot from this discussion. In the future, you can be sure I will never bother you with another argument. I really don't think you learned anything actually, because you were so caught up in trying to be right about a subject that you know very little about. That being said, I appreciate the fact that this conversation is over, as you have just resorted to spouting nonsense and it really is a waste of my time giving you anymore of my attention. Sorry I took you seriously in the first place.

I would love to hear the justification for this comment. Mathematically it seems possible to have a 2% bodyfat. It's not about mathematics, it's about basic physiology. Men generally can't get below 3% before they start impairing essential organ functions. Read these articles: www.bodyrecomposition.com/.../set-points-settling-points-and-bodyweight-regulation-part-1.html www.bodyrecomposition.com/.../set-points-settling-points-and-bodyweight-regulation-part-2.html www.bodyrecomposition.com/.../what-does-body-composition-mean.html chetday.com/bodyfatindex.htm www.drweil.com/.../QAA53794

It's not about mathematics, it's about basic physiology. Men generally can't get below 3% before they start impairing essential organ functions. Read these articles: Essential body fat is made up of organs, connective tissue and bone marrow, right? These seem to be rather static, physiologically. So lets make up some numbers. Mr. X just finished maturing (full bone development) and weighs a healthy 150lbs, 15% body fat, 3% of which is essential. Mr. X is tired of being picked on and starts on the Charles Atlas training program. He does very well with the help of his comic book friend, and balloons up to 220lbs with a 2% body fat. The question is, should he be dead? 150lbs * .03 = 4.5 lbs of essential body fat 220lbs * .02 = 4.4 lbs of total body fat So he is border line in trouble. He is also only trying to maintain this level for 5 days. Seems possible. What exactly is basic physiology without math? A collection of rules of thumb?

Errr…I felt like that. The measurement was based on a formula I had using skin-fold calipers. Obviously there would be some accuracy issues with the exact number, but that's what was measured. This did not account for internal organ fat, just subcutaneous fat. Also, bodybuilders do not maintain that degree of leanness for an extended length of time, it's more of a peak you hope to reach for 2-4 days if luck is in your favor. So, I don't know what the actual percentage was, but it was close enough for government work. :D Yep, that caliper reading was way off. A reading of 1.9% is plain ridiculous and as already pointed out, reserved for dead people.

Essential body fat is made up of organs, connective tissue and bone marrow, right? These seem to be rather static, physiologically. So lets make up some numbers. Mr. X just finished maturing (full bone development) and weighs a healthy 150lbs, 15% body fat, 3% of which is essential. Mr. X is tired of being picked on and starts on the Charles Atlas training program. He does very well with the help of his comic book friend, and balloons up to 220lbs with a 2% body fat. The question is, should he be dead? 150lbs * .03 = 4.5 lbs of essential body fat 220lbs * .02 = 4.4 lbs of total body fat So he is border line in trouble. He is also only trying to maintain this level for 5 days. Seems possible. What exactly is basic physiology without math? A collection of rules of thumb? Actually, since you are so fond of math, why don't we do the calculations based on an individual of the SAME WEIGHT, since that has a more logical bearing on the debate at hand: 150 * .03=4.5 lbs of essential fat 150 * .02=3.0 lbs of essential fat A loss of 1.5 lbs of fat. Now your 220 lb individual: 220 * .03=6.6lbs of essential fat 220 * .02=4.4 lbs of essential fat A loss of 2.2 lbs of essential fat That is a heck of alot when you are down to essential fat that is being used to protect important physiological functions. I will also add, that it's impossible to be 220 lbs and 3% unless you are using drugs, which takes into account most professional bodybuilders who are not in natural competition. Furthermore, modern day methods of measuring bodyfat all carry a margin of error. So the chances of an individual saying they are 3% when they are in fact 5-6% are quite high. So truly hitting 3% is generally reserved for hardcore competitors with more than one trick up their sleeves. Anyone who has actually attempted to hit single digit bodyfat will tell you that it is a very, very difficult feat, as your hormones go south and your body fights you tooth and nail. There is plenty of information about this in the links I posted, as well as all over the internet if you care to research it further. As far as I am concerned, I have said my peace on the matter.

I'm curious how many people have ever used this concept (muscle confusion) in their "in-water" training? If you look at some of the more creative training out there (Race Club) you see this happening... I've been watching the senior age groupers training under Brad Hering here at MAC and its awesome to see them doing this type of "cross-fit" training...they have a strength coach from Sweden who worked with the national hockey team and is doing a lot of very cool stuff...and the kids are getting killed...but loving it. Lot's of fast swimming up onto deck into plyo work, core work...

...Which isn't totally bad, but you don't see strength coaches from other sports doing much pool time, do you? It's not the best place to work on that stuff. Kind of the reason we use weights. Yeah, but Jazztard, you don't see football players playing baseball or baseball players playing basketball or track and field athletes doing rowing either as training. Seems most sports focus on their one main sport and then add in a weight program to compliment it. I see a lot of strange and interesting moves done by our strength and conditioning coach, along with Paul.