High elbows vs. being "long" in the water

The extreme EVF is not for Rec swimmers since most people simply do not have the shoulder flexibility. Agree with pretty much everything you wrote, especially the comment about most swimmer's asymmetry in term of arm action. Also agree that EVF isn't for most swimmers although some simple exercises exist to improve shoulder (rotator's cuff) flexibility and in fact. EVF is something that should be practiced outside the water in front of a mirror. Exercises can (and should) be made dryland. Final integration in the water with freestyle one arm etc... Over the years I found out that it is much easier to teach this way, getting rid of any proprioception issue in front of a mirror first. I think that a lot of rec swimmers can add this flavor to their stroke, to the extent allowed by their flexibility and mechanics. However and I do want to insist. Combination of extra-long wait time and glide in the front (so typical to rec swimmers) and attempt to perform EVF can be quite damaging on the rotator's cuff (like you probably know). So to me, the bottom line is that you need to start catching little earlier if you want to integrate EVF, in order to unload some of the pressure put on the catch. And as soon as the arm is getting closer from underneath the body, THEN significant amount of pressure (power) can safely be applied since the elbow is no longer in a vulnerable position. World class swimmers are World class because they typically have bullet proof bodies. They have swam so many millions of meters than they can put a huge amount of pressure on their EVF catch if need be, but this behavior should not be replicate at the recreational level I strongly agree with you. I am a master level competitive swimmer (half rec so to speak) and me? It's either the shoulder or the elbow that complain if I put too much pressure on high elbow catch.

I read up on early vertical forearm, and was trying to apply this last pool session. For someone who is used to dropping their elbow, is there a particular cue that is helpful in becoming consistent at keeping the elbow up? Also, from looking at some pics of Thorpe and Hackett (http://www.svl.ch/ElbowsHigh/), it seems that the forearm stays vertical (i.e., perpendicular to the water) through the pull, rather than rather than sweeping horizontally under the torso. Though it doesn't stay perpendicular to the torso because the torso is rotating toward the pulling arm. Does this sound about right?

The problem I'm having is that when I swim with high elbows, I feel like I'm not as "long" in the water, that I get less glide, and that generally In this particular case, what you feel is of no interest compared to the actual result of this change. And this actual result can easily be monitored with distance per stroke. This should therefore be your main point of focus while modifying this particular aspect of stroke mechanics. For what it's worth, most of the time when I fall in an endless argument with any TI representative (including the guru himself), this is my main complain, and they don't seem to understand it, hence the fact that I am not keen to recommend this approach to swimming. Swimming long, by over focusing on front quadrant often has a detrimental impact on articulations (elbows and shoulders). This is due to the fact that in swimming the freestyle, the catch phase should be made with less pressure than the propulsive phase that follows the catch (catch isn't supposed to be seen as a propulsive phase). Listening and reading Total Immersion, front quadrant/longest possible distance per stroke is supposed to make swimming feel easy. Well I have news for them, performing a 1500 race is not easy, has never been and will never be (if beating your personal best is the goal). And over the years, I found out that finding your best *gear ratio* that is the optimal DPS (distance per stroke) / Stroke Rate combination can make it feel little easier by unloading the huge stress put on articulations as a result of wanting to swim tooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong. I don't totally disagree with this way of swimming, because some have success with it. But I don't think that the majority of swimmers can tolerate this (I certainly can not). If you want a more balanced approach to freestyle, regarding this distance per stroke / Stroke rate paradigm, just switch to SwimSmooth (www.swimsmooth.com) Charles

However and I do want to insist. Combination of extra-long wait time and glide in the front (so typical to rec swimmers) and attempt to perform EVF can be quite damaging on the rotator's cuff (like you probably know). So to me, the bottom line is that you need to start catching little earlier if you want to integrate EVF, in order to unload some of the pressure put on the catch. And as soon as the arm is getting closer from underneath the body, THEN significant amount of pressure (power) can safely be applied since the elbow is no longer in a vulnerable position. Can you elaborate please? Are you saying I shouldn't reach too far forward before letting the forearm drop into the catch? Why does a long wait time before starting the catch stressful to the rotator cuff? Is it that your shoulder is in a different position with the extra long glide before starting the catch? Just a beginner's recommendation: if it is irritating your shoulder's, wether or not it's more efficient, it should be avoided or scaled back until comfortable. You misunderstood. My shoulders bother me with my current technique, which is more of a dropped elbow catch and pull. Trying EVF as I understand it to be superior technique and may be easier on my shoulders.

I can always spot a TI swimmer from the far - they swim in slow motion dumbest thing i've ever read here.... congrats!

In this particular case, what you feel is of no interest compared to the actual result of this change. And this actual result can easily be monitored with distance per stroke. This should therefore be your main point of focus while modifying this particular aspect of stroke mechanics. For what it's worth, most of the time when I fall in an endless argument with any TI representative (including the guru himself), this is my main complain, and they don't seem to understand it, hence the fact that I am not keen to recommend this approach to swimming. Swimming long, by over focusing on front quadrant often has a detrimental impact on articulations (elbows and shoulders). This is due to the fact that in swimming the freestyle, the catch phase should be made with less pressure than the propulsive phase that follows the catch (catch isn't supposed to be seen as a propulsive phase). Listening and reading Total Immersion, front quadrant/longest possible distance per stroke is supposed to make swimming feel easy. Well I have news for them, performing a 1500 race is not easy, has never been and will never be (if beating your personal best is the goal). And over the years, I found out that finding your best *gear ratio* that is the optimal DPS (distance per stroke) / Stroke Rate combination can make it feel little easier by unloading the huge stress put on articulations as a result of wanting to swim tooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong. I don't totally disagree with this way of swimming, because some have success with it. But I don't think that the majority of swimmers can tolerate this (I certainly can not). If you want a more balanced approach to freestyle, regarding this distance per stroke / Stroke rate paradigm, just switch to SwimSmooth (www.swimsmooth.com) Charles I have tried to swim with the high elbow pull as well, and found it very difficult to sprint with it. While I get good distance per stroke, the stroke rate suffers too much.

dumbest thing i've ever read here.... congrats! Not sure it is the dumbest thing but who knows. Back to the subject at hand. I hate the term "evf" Not everyone has the shoulder flexibilty required to really achieve that position. Most of us don't have the range of motion for a thorpe, phelps, addlington. I like to think of just "catching" or "anchoring" the arm like Solar mentioned in a previous post. I think those terms allow each person to find their right spot and time in the water to "catch/anchor" into the water. evf comes across as there is one and only spot to place the arm. When I have worked on developing a evf, it has killed my shoulders. When I just think about catching the water, I swim much easier and faster. Solar, you mentioned swimming like a long vessel and not a barge. Then you mentioned to stay flatter in the water to achieve a longer boat. Wouldn't swimming flatter make one more like a barge than a longer vessel?

I have tried to swim with the high elbow pull as well, and found it very difficult to sprint with it. While I get good distance per stroke, the stroke rate suffers too much. Ahhhhh finally. what a relief. This equation is so simple but one has to actually count stroke while racing to realize this. Better, DPS/SR can be part of a racing strategy. One of the weirdest monkey I've met in my short life so far was this little 15yo sprinter. 51.6 over 100 SCM. Listen to this. He'd tell me things like that by cutting his fingernails would somehow change feeling of the water. Anyway, this is the funny side. Impressing side is that he could race a 100 SCM with no goggles, no need to see the wall!!! Distance per stroke count along with a fairly good knowledge of his own stroke rate along with a game plan (like I'll start at 15strokes high rate, short glides for 50min then since I'll increase to 14strokes while fireing the kick). All turns were perfect and so was the touch. To me though, racing on a wrong gear ratio is even worst for longer distances. I can train at 13/14 stokes, even 11-12 if I cheat. Do you think for just one minute I'd start a 1500 at 13? Impact on rotator's cuff muscles get tired prematurely, then I loose water and even if I increase rate, since technique is blown out, nothing works. It's like starting a cycling long time trial on a gear you can only stand for few minutes. I am not talking about swimming 5 strokes over your best. For me, I start a 1500 at 16strokes and I'm fine.

However and I do want to insist. Combination of extra-long wait time and glide in the front (so typical to rec swimmers) and attempt to perform EVF can be quite damaging on the rotator's cuff (like you probably know). Can you elaborate please? Are you saying I shouldn't reach too far forward before letting the forearm drop into the catch? You know without actually seeing you, it's becoming difficult to issue detailed recommendation. But your question is actually crucial. Say your right arm has 1 full second to complete a stroke (pull). Now please, let us split the full pulling path in 3 equal parts. This is then .33 sec per portion. The hand should accelerate from entry to exit with the biggest portion of power being applied by second third of the path. Very early while the hand is up there, upon the entry, to keep elbow high you need to perform an internal rotation of the shoulder (even if you're lying on your side). That is how you get to bend forearm to pull high elbow. Say you wait and wait in the front, say you end up spending .66sec in the front, that leaves you with only .33 to create this acceleration. Therefore, power has to be applied earlier in the pulling or else stroke rate will suffer. Combination of the stroke characteristic with wanting to keep high elbow may irritate the weakest links inside the shoulders and or elbows. Or put the other way around, having a pain in the shoulder may be related to this. Often, those who *catch up* can't (afford) swimming high elbow. And the reason for this is that because they catch up. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken if any attempt is to be made to pull high elbow. Now at first, upon arm entry, you can wait a little that's not bad that gets ride of some bubbles if any and you gradually dig for deeper water to take a catch. You don't have to hurry up to do this. And this is why when you see these swimmers (Thorpe or most of his competitors), it looks as if they glide up front but it's just because the hand is slowly aiming for deeper water. Take a look at underwater footage and look at their fingers. Because this is how they think this movement. Fingers first then the hand slowly (at first) aim for deeper water then after this, things might unfold at a rapid pace. You take a catch you're already in a strong position hand accelerate more and more as soon as strong back are involved, full power is being applied ending up explosive then it's the exit, and a slow and progressive catch again. It is the level of finesse you can express through this execution that allows you to loose as little water possible.

Total Immersion, EVF, Front quadrant, Long stroke, are not contradictions like George said. Here are two great video's that show you what the catch or EVF is. YouTube - SwimTherapy - Frontcrawl Catch YouTube - How to swim with a High Elbow Catch/EVF - Total Immersion Israel Here's where I think people begin to disagree and they shouldn't. When the arm is extended in a straight position it serves the purpose of keeping the lower body from dropping. The catch or EVF should be synonymous for "setting-up" the stroke. The body type (short, tall, slim, not so slim) helps determine how deep and how defined the EVF is. Two swimmers who have different looking EVF's are Alain Bernard (straighter and deeper) and Rebecca Addlington (near 90 degrees and shallow). Each competitive stroke can be separated into four different segments or quadrants. The front quadrant is where the catch (EVF) “sets-up” the stroke into an effective propulsive position after a full extension of the arm; the second quadrant is where power from a properly set up hand and forearm position occurs; the third quadrant where the release from the power phase and then recovery is initiated; and the fourth quadrant is where the recovery makes the transition to the entry. The all important EVF position or catch is located in the first quadrant and beginning of the second quadrant of each stroke. This above explaination should show you that every swimmer should use every quadrant and to say some is or is not a "front-quadrant" swimmer, is simply not necessary and/or silly!