I learned to swim as an adult a couple of years ago. When I started the front crawl, I would focus on being "long" in the water - i.e., really reaching with the forward hand on each stroke, and not pulling until the trailing hand entered the water (the TI front quadrant swimming concept).
But over time, my shoulders would bother me. And I recently learned that swimming with high elbows (envisioning your arm going over a barrel) is better for your shoulders. I was definitely dropping my elbows before.
The problem I'm having is that when I swim with high elbows, I feel like I'm not as "long" in the water, that I get less glide, and that generally, I have to work a lot harder (though my shoulders feel better). One obvious thing I've noticed is that with a high elbow stroke, I can't seem to keep my leading arm out in front until my trailing arm catches up.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
Edit: I should add that I'm a recreational swimmer, so technique that is easier on the shoulder is preferred to a technique that may be better for competitive swimmers but is more stressful to the shoulder joint.
Former Member
Just so I am picturing this correctly... when you swim freestyle/front crawl, there is a point in your stroke where both your hands are out in front of you?
Yes. I learned to swim from the Total Immersion book, which had a lot of focus on keeping your body long in the water, which is accomplished by what they call front quadrant swimming. Here's a diagram from the book, on p37: link (you may have to scroll down a bit on p37). And if you scroll down to p38, the first paragraph describes the technique.
Now that I look at it, I guess my pulling arm looks a lot like the diagram, with the elbow low.
When I started the front crawl, I would focus on being "long" in the water - i.e., really reaching with the forward hand on each stroke, and not pulling until the trailing hand entered the water (the TI front quadrant swimming concept).
Just so I am picturing this correctly... when you swim freestyle/front crawl, there is a point in your stroke where both your hands are out in front of you?
Former Member
...The problem I'm having is that when I swim with high elbows, I feel like I'm not as "long" in the water, that I get less glide, and that generally, I have to work a lot harder (though my shoulders feel better). One obvious thing I've noticed is that with a high elbow stroke, I can't seem to keep my leading arm out in front until my trailing arm catches up.
Any thoughts? Thanks....
I get confused by the term "high elbows"... but from what I know based on my own experience you can be long in the water, and still have your elbow travel high, especially in the recovery. As for the pull I suggest whatever is the best combination of comfort and "getting a good grip" on the water.
My philosophy is that you have to find your own stroke. Get as much information as you can. put it to practice, and find what works for you. Sure, if someone wants to break records, you pretty much need to follow that crowd. But since you are a "recreational swimmer", only seeking general improvement, you have a lot more freedom on what you can choose to do. And you can do this while still looking and feeling great in the water.
Understanding the "why" for a lot of things can be really helpful. Just doing it and getting a feel for it ("be the water") can go a long way too.
The main reason for front quadrant swimming is balance. If you've not already tried it, do this:
Float on your back with your arms at your side... try and get your toes out of the water. I've never seen anyone be able to do this.
Now put your arms over your head and try and float with your toes out of the water. You probably won't be in an ideal streamlined position, but most folks can do this (even if it takes a few tries).
For most everyone I've had do this exercise, the light-bulb comes on.
My suggestions are as follows:
Finish the pull with the arm fully extended by your side. For practice you can brush your thigh with your thumb, testing how far down you can reach without throwing off your streamline.
On the recovery exit the water elbow first. Keep the arm relaxed... the wrist should be limp. Make a streamlined entry just before the arm reaches full extension... the arm should still be relaxed. This elbow first recovery by itself tends to naturally incorporate such things as "zipper" and "fingertip drag" drills.
Except when breathing, the head should be fairly still. You want body roll however. Gently rotating the shoulders to easily accommodate this elbow first recovery. This is a "long axis" stroke... so the rotation is along the length of the body.
For practice, long distance swims, swimming with a slower turnover rate, or simple experimentation, let the arm stretch out in front of you. The position you are looking for is similar to that of an eager student with their hand up high to answer a question. This will allow you to engage more core muscles, especially "lats", and allow you to "bear down" more during the pull. At this point you can engage in EVF (early vertical forearm), which I personally find brutally uncomfortable, so I don't do it (there are plenty of treatments on the topic however, if you want to pursue it.)
This arm in front, long body position point is a good place to try and incorporate a brief glide in your stroke, and make adjustments in your body position to improve streamlining. In particular, try swimming with the pelvic tilt at different points (forward, back, neutral), and try and notice the differences as you move through the water. You will hear a lot about pelvic positioning in Yoga, so you may want to consider that for some supplementary training. There are a LOT of crossover points between Swimming and Yoga.
As for the catch, the basic concept is pretty simple. Many people imagine themselves pushing the water behind them, in more of a propeller concept. But really what you are wanting to do is "anchor" your hand in the water as best you can, with the least "slippage", and pull yourself forward. More like climbing a ladder. In a perfect "no hand slippage" world, your hand will exit the water at the end of the stroke, at the same point it went in at the beginning of the stroke. Capiche?
This introduces the concept I like to refer to as "finding the path of most and least resistance". You want the most resistance (least slippage) for your pull, and the least resistance (best slippage) for everything else. (Mastering this balance of slippage with a good kick is another lesson.)
The best way to get good slippage for your body is to keep it long and narrow, like a racing boat (as opposed to a barge). This long and narrow "vessel shape" is best achieved by keeping your body flat and straight in the water. From the floating exercise above, you know that flat is more easy to accomplish with your arms out in front, hence the popularity of FQS (front quadrant swimming). Another good thing to keep in mind is keeping your hips up. This all helps you to stay well streamlined and balanced in the water... and swimming efficiency is ALL ABOUT good streamlining and balance.
:)
Former Member
In this particular case, what you feel is of no interest compared to the actual result of this change.
And this actual result can easily be monitored with distance per stroke. This should therefore be your main point of focus while modifying this particular aspect of stroke mechanics.
For what it's worth, most of the time when I fall in an endless argument with any TI representative (including the guru himself), this is my main complain, and they don't seem to understand it, hence the fact that I am not keen to recommend this approach to swimming.
Swimming long, by over focusing on front quadrant often has a detrimental impact on articulations (elbows and shoulders). This is due to the fact that in swimming the freestyle, the catch phase should be made with less pressure than the propulsive phase that follows the catch (catch isn't supposed to be seen as a propulsive phase).
Listening and reading Total Immersion, front quadrant/longest possible distance per stroke is supposed to make swimming feel easy. Well I have news for them, performing a 1500 race is not easy, has never been and will never be (if beating your personal best is the goal). And over the years, I found out that finding your best *gear ratio* that is the optimal DPS (distance per stroke) / Stroke Rate combination can make it feel little easier by unloading the huge stress put on articulations as a result of wanting to swim tooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong.
I don't totally disagree with this way of swimming, because some have success with it. But I don't think that the majority of swimmers can tolerate this (I certainly can not).
I'm not an adherent to TI or anything like that. It just happened that I wanted to learn how to swim, so I went to the bookstore, and the TI book looked like a good way to learn.
I hadn't counted strokes, but yeah, that's a good point - it's way more objective than how much glide I feel I'm getting.
After trying EVF for the first time, my shoulders didn't seem as sore as they usually do, but I also did much less volume. But I can see how dropping the elbow during the pull phase can put a lot of stress on the shoulder.
Former Member
I can not understand how being long in the water and high elbows, are a contradiction.
Former Member
I can not understand how being long in the water and high elbows, are a contradiction.
When I look at swimmers doing EVF (like Thorpe), they are not doing front quadrant swimming as taught by the TI school. Since I learned to swim doing FQS, trying to do EVF felt strange, and I didn't feel as 'long' in the water b/c there are times in the stroke when neither hand is outstretched in front of me.
Just a beginner's recommendation: if it is irritating your shoulder's, wether or not it's more efficient, it should be avoided or scaled back until comfortable. I'm in the same boat, learned to swim recently and practiced this stroke as I learned, but it also strains my shoulders. I just use it on long swims if I need to briefly recover from accidentially going too anerobic.
It's probably better to sacrafice a little efficiency to avoid injury. For instance, I only breath on the left because my left should dislocates easy and breathing to the right seems to place it in a vulnerable position.
Serpico -
Thorpe almost swims catch-up Free AND has the high elbow. Many good Freestylers have one arm close to catch free and one that pulls a little earlier.
The extreme EVF is not for Rec swimmers since most people simply do not have the shoulder flexibility.
I can always spot a TI swimmer from the far - they swim in slow motion :applaud:
You should swim long - allow your leading arm to glide - but keep hand / elbow / shoulder in a straight line and ease into the early catch when ready.
