Reducing stroke per length in backstroke

You don't need a fast kick; you need a strong six-beat kick with a lot of properly-timed torso roll. You cannot generate a strong catch and early pull unless you are rolled down toward the pulling arm. Also, the more you roll, the less strain you put on your shoulder in that catch position. A lot of poor backstrokers lead with their elbows in the pulling phase. Due to poor torso roll, poor shoulder flexibility, or just not understanding what they really should be doing, they never get their arms in the right position to engage their back muscles in the pull. At the catch phase, you should feel the very same "over a barrel" feeling you feel in a proper freestyle catch. Then in the pull phase, the elbow should be pointed at the bottom of the pool and bent so that the upper and lower arms are about at right angles until the upper arm gets below the shoulder. Meanwhile, while you are rolling from one side to the other, your head has to stay absolutely still. In reality you should be taking pretty close to the same number of stokes in back as you do in free (if you do the same SDK). If I come up at the flags, I actually take fewer strokes per length on my back than I do if I come up at the flags on my front. I think it is because my kick is more propulsive on my back than on my front. (I am working on that by doing more front kicking using my snorkel.)

If I come up at the flags, I actually take fewer strokes per length on my back than I do if I come up at the flags on my front. I think it is because my kick is more propulsive on my back than on my front. (I am working on that by doing more front kicking using my snorkel.) IMHO if we are having a discussion about increasing DPS we leave the kick out of it entirely... I probably should have asked this to begin with...why are you trying to reduce the number ps strokes you are taking? Can you tell me what that would be for a 25 (yards)? RedBird nailed it...if you are looking to swim faster ultimately just focusing on reducing your number of stroke cycles won't help as it involves everything.

IMHO if we are having a discussion about increasing DPS we leave the kick out of it entirely... But the kick really contributes to the torso roll, which in turn contributes to the pull efficiency. And I think torso roll contributes a lot more to pull efficiency in backstroke than in freestyle. Many people swim a pretty flat freestyle pretty fast, but flat backstroke is nearly always slow backstroke. And while many people can pull freestyle with a pull-buoy just about as fast as they can swim, a lot of decent backstrokers can barely pull backstroke with a pull-buoy at all. "until the upper arm gets below the shoulder", meaning well after the other hand has entered the water? No. Watch some video of great backstrokers. You will see in the underwater shots how the forearm and upper arm are at about 90 degrees through the middle range of the pull. But their two arms are nearly in opposition to one another, with one entering the water just about as the other is leaving it.

But the kick really contributes to the torso roll, which in turn contributes to the pull efficiency. And I think torso roll contributes a lot more to pull efficiency in backstroke than in freestyle. Many people swim a pretty flat freestyle pretty fast, but flat backstroke is nearly always slow backstroke. And while many people can pull freestyle with a pull-buoy just about as fast as they can swim, a lot of decent backstrokers can barely pull backstroke with a pull-buoy at all. No. Watch some video of great backstrokers. You will see in the underwater shots how the forearm and upper arm are at about 90 degrees through the middle range of the pull. But their two arms are nearly in opposition to one another, with one entering the water just about as the other is leaving it. Rotation is intitated thru your core not as an extension of the kick...look at some of the underwater shots of Piersol, Lochte, etc. and you will see wildly different kicks...some are fairly level 6 beat, others have more of a scissor movement, some have almost no kick...but they all have huge core rotation and a very deep catch. You should be able to do single arm back drills with virtually no kick and focusing on that type of rotation to incease DPS... Have you seen this? YouTube - 2009 | Ryosuke Irie | World Record | 152.86 | Men's 200m Backstroke | 10 May 2009 * And yes I know that FINA did not recognize the WR because of the illegal suit.

Uh... kick a lot more. That's all I can think of. ande will have much better advice!

Rotation is intitated thru your core not as an extension of the kick. I completely agree. I didn't mean one should focus on kick to achieve rotation, just that I don't think you can or should disregard the kick's effect on the pull. You should be able to do single arm back drills with virtually no kick and focusing on that type of rotation to incease DPS. I also really like this type of drill for focusing on good rotation. If you don't get your shoulder and hand where they need to be at the catch, you just will not go anywhere. also the stroke has flattened out. so, the best are currently swimming backstroke with less emphasis on rotation I think it must take a lot of shoulder flexibility to do it this way, though. I know the only way I can swim backstroke without tweaking my shoulders is with a strong rotation.

Thank you very much for the very helpful reply, ourswimmer. I see a major thing is the timing of the pull. Also need to develop more about the "over a barrel" feeling. Then in the pull phase, the elbow should be pointed at the bottom of the pool and bent so that the upper and lower arms are about at right angles until the upper arm gets below the shoulder. "until the upper arm gets below the shoulder", meaning well after the other hand has entered the water? I think I finish my pull too soon. I probably should have asked this to begin with...why are you trying to reduce the number ps strokes you are taking? Can you tell me what that would be for a 25 (yards)? Because I want to make my strokes more efficient and energy-saving. At my current level, more kicks will only slow me down ;) I can now make it about 22 strokes per 25 yards.

A strong rotation allows one to pull deeper and engage bigger muscles, which increases DPS. I think that is what the OP is looking for, so I think those who have been pointing to drills to increase rotation are giving good advice. My favorite backstroke drill along these lines is what one of my former coaches called the "shotgun" or "rifle" drill. As you swim backstroke, you pause the arm when it is pointing almost straight up, perpendicular to the water surface. Your shoulder should be out of the water and you should be able to "sight" down your straight arm like a rifle barrel. Watching the video Paul posted, you can easily imagine Irie doing this as he is swimming. Keeping in mind that speed is a function of DPS and stroke rate...the main disadvantage to a strong rotation is usually a slower turnover. I notice that when I sprint backstroke I tend to sacrifice rotation for hand-speed (though I still rotate a lot compared to many) and I am not as clean in my hand entry. I do the same in freestyle too. It is hard for me to compare strokes-per-length in back and free since I tend to go (much) further underwater in backstroke races and in pratice too. But even if the DPS is comparable -- and I suspect it is -- my turnover in free is definitely higher, which is probably why it is a faster stroke.

No. Watch some video of great backstrokers. You will see in the underwater shots how the forearm and upper arm are at about 90 degrees through the middle range of the pull. But their two arms are nearly in opposition to one another, with one entering the water just about as the other is leaving it. Oh, just realized I mistook your "upper arm" to mean the other arm that is above ("upper")! Confusions can arise when using words "above" and "below" when talking about the body lying in horizontal position. It could mean the absolute position (above = higher in space), or it could mean the relative position on one's body when standing upright. Now I think that by "until the upper arm gets below the shoulder" you probably mean until the upper arm (of the side that's making the pull) gets more closer to the foot than the shoulder ("below" the shoulder if standing upright). Did I get it this time?

A strong rotation allows one to pull deeper and engage bigger muscles, which increases DPS. I think that is what the OP is looking for, so I think those who have been pointing to drills to increase rotation are giving good advice. My favorite backstroke drill along these lines is what one of my former coaches called the "shotgun" or "rifle" drill. As you swim backstroke, you pause the arm when it is pointing almost straight up, perpendicular to the water surface. Your shoulder should be out of the water and you should be able to "sight" down your straight arm like a rifle barrel. Watching the video Paul posted, you can easily imagine Irie doing this as he is swimming. Keeping in mind that speed is a function of DPS and stroke rate...the main disadvantage to a strong rotation is usually a slower turnover. I notice that when I sprint backstroke I tend to sacrifice rotation for hand-speed (though I still rotate a lot compared to many) and I am not as clean in my hand entry. I do the same in freestyle too. It is hard for me to compare strokes-per-length in back and free since I tend to go (much) further underwater in backstroke races and in pratice too. But even if the DPS is comparable -- and I suspect it is -- my turnover in free is definitely higher, which is probably why it is a faster stroke. Chris, have you ever done that drill with a pull buoy and a band around your feet? Alsdo, would you say that the "flattening" out of your stroke at incresing speeds would be about the same as freestyle? I'm not an accomplished backstroker, i think I entered it for fun years ago but have nly toyed with it since..but i do see a lot of similarities with freestyle?