It is here!

Frank: I just read the article which Swimming World published. It seems to conflict with the way Leslie's time was denied from the rankings. There is the possibility that this USAS meet had sanctioned time trials. I swam in the GA Sr State Champs last week (USAS), and the meet information packet expressly stated there would be time trials and that they were sanctioned. You'd have to check the entry packet for the meet that Karlyn swam in.

If you see a 500 free result where Dennis Baker swims around 5:05 to 5:10, then he was swimming fly. I've heard that it's quite a sight to see him not only racing kids less than a third his age, but doing butterfly to boot. (Presumably he'd seed himself in a slower heat if he was planning to do fly, etc etc)

This to me makes sense because during the meet you could have all sorts of swimmers wanting to change, add, and delete events. So this puts some kind of control and order for the meet to be conducted in an organized competition. Makes sense. A competitor could miss their rival's time by a fraction, and try to better it by asking for a time trial. Like a do-over. There must be a place to refer to in the rule book. Or maybe not. Apparently language stating otherwise seems a little vague.

Fortress wrote:My own lawyer, Mr. Fort, who has many years of litigation experience and does not look at the rules through a swimmers perspective or experience, agrees. Good to know Fort found an unbiased lawyer to give an opinion :D Hulk wrote:And can I get the exact rule number that covers this situation? I have looked thru the USMS rulebook now three times cover to cover in the last 24 hours and can not find where this swim is CLEARLY disallowed. Since you are convinced it is, could you please quote the relevant sections so I can see if I am missing something? It's not so much to find in the rulebook where it disallows the swim. It's actually the converse: the rulebook defines what is an eligible swim - it does not list all the swims that don't count. Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my own interpretation of the rulebook: in order for a swim to "count" it must be from a sanctioned/recognized event. Period. The rulebook goes on to explain what constitutes a sanctioned/recognized swim. The time trial was not done in a meet (the zone meet announcement did not include a 50 fly at the end of the meet) and therefore does not meet the definition of an eligible swim. Again, I think the swim was legit and it's not like she cheated, but if you're asking the Rules Committee to evaluate the swim based on the rules, well, then guess what they'll do... Perhaps, as some feel, it is simply safer to swim in USS meets. Not nearly as fun, but not nearly as many masters times thrown out for various reasons either. Or maybe it is safer to swim 50 fly's during the meet...:bolt:

Guys and gals, we're never going to understand all the rules completely, and like most rules/laws, they are subject to interpretation. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo in there - and in what is being questioned here, there are a lot of references to a lot of other rules. You miss one article bullet point, misread a word or leave out a word, and things change quickly! Fort swam what in my interpretation of the situation and rules amounts to an exhibition swim. For every rules-based argument I can come up with for officializing the swim, I can also come up with one against. I've said before, I'd love to see her get the full credit for it, and again, it is unfortunate what she has to go through, so that future generations of time trial-ers will not have to do the same. What is most unfortunate is this could all have been avoided by Fort actually swimming the 100 fly on Sunday... and getting her 50 split like she had originally intended.

Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my own interpretation of the rulebook: in order for a swim to "count" it must be from a sanctioned/recognized event. Period. Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my appeal. I am seeking a sanction/recognition under Rule 202.2. Or do you already know that the Rules Committee will reject the appeal on that basis as well? As for swimming a real 50 fly in a meet, c'mon guys. You know I swim it in plenty of meets, although not much in SCM. I could not attend the meet on Saturday because I was watching my kid swim in an important meet. As for the 100 fly, I'm an old sprinter and need recovery time. I didn't have it. No regrets about scratching it. I wouldn't have swum fast. YOU go swim on minimal rest; I choose not to. And it is my understanding that time trials were done at the Ron John meet, the Long Beach meet and at the NE Champs. Don't know the circumstances of them; pehaps they met your interpretation the rules.

I was trying to be funny about swimming it in the meet. I've already heard why you couldn't at Zones. It was a joke... Also, I don't know anything about the other meets nor is it any of my business. Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my appeal. I am seeking a sanction/recognition under Rule 202.2. Or do you already know that the Rules Committee will reject the appeal on that basis as well? No, of course I don't know how they are going to rule. I have no involvement in this. In fact, I had zero involvement in it until you PM'd me and asked me to get involved! Below is the 202.2 rule you cited: 202.2 RECOGNIZED EVENTS Times achieved at recognized events shall be considered for USMS national records and Top 10 times if a designated USMS observer is present and verifies in writing that the conduct of the competition conforms to the relevant USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations. USMS membership is not required for swimmers entered in recognized events. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by USA Swimming shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by a FINA member federation shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition if the USMS member(s) register for the meet as USMS members. It is the responsibility of the swimmer to submit times obtained in recognized events with complete documentation to the appropriate LSMC (sic) Top 10 recorder and the Records and Tabulation Committee chair. My understanding: the first underlined sentence explains that recognized events are eligible. The second underlined sentence is a definition of what would constitute a recognized event. Note the words "sanctioned" and "meet" as qualifiers. The TT was not part of a "meet." I hope you win the appeal and prove all this wrong. I'm simply having a good time playing devil's advocate and I look forward to hearing the response from USMS.

I was trying to be funny about swimming it in the meet. I've already heard why you couldn't at Zones. It was a joke... Also, I don't know anything about the other meets nor is it any of my business. No, of course I don't know how they are going to rule. I have no involvement in this. In fact, I had zero involvement in it until you PM'd me and asked me to get involved! Below is the 202.2 rule you cited: 202.2 RECOGNIZED EVENTS Times achieved at recognized events shall be considered for USMS national records and Top 10 times if a designated USMS observer is present and verifies in writing that the conduct of the competition conforms to the relevant USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations. USMS membership is not required for swimmers entered in recognized events. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by USA Swimming shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by a FINA member federation shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition if the USMS member(s) register for the meet as USMS members. It is the responsibility of the swimmer to submit times obtained in recognized events with complete documentation to the appropriate LSMC (sic) Top 10 recorder and the Records and Tabulation Committee chair. My understanding: the first underlined sentence explains that recognized events are eligible. The second underlined sentence is a definition of what would constitute a recognized event. Note the words "sanctioned" and "meet" as qualifiers. The TT was not part of a "meet." I hope you win the appeal and prove all this wrong. I'm simply having a good time playing devil's advocate and I look forward to hearing the response from USMS. My understanding is that the 50 fly can also be sanctioned separately as a "meet," you little devil.

My understanding is that the 50 fly can also be sanctioned separately as a "meet," you little devil. Precisely! As long as you can get it sanctioned you are home free, simple as that. I don't know why it took so long for us to agree on that point.:applaud:

And it is my understanding that time trials were done at the Ron John meet, the Long Beach meet and at the NE Champs. Don't know the circumstances of them; pehaps they met your interpretation the rules. I was at all three days of the Long Beach meet and I didn't see any individual time trials. The meet ran from morning until after dark all three days; they wouldn't have had time for individual swims in addition to all the heats. Several people did do official splits that resulted in national or world records, and I think the results label those as "time trials," but they weren't time trials in the same sense that yours was. (This is not to express any opinion at all about whether or not USMS should recognize your fantastic 50 fly.)