It is here!

He's 47...and he likes to pick on 13 & 15 year olds like Creampuff. On? or Up? Seriously, though, I am not sure which is more impressive--a 47 year old who can swim this fast, or a 13 year old boy. It would be interesting to see what the bell curve of swimming records is. I assume that Dennis must be close to the world record with that 500. I wonder what the world record is for the 13-14 and 11-12 age groups. Maybe someday masters swimming could compete in kids swimming meets with our respective cohorts competing on a level playing field--i.e., guys in the Paul Smith Dennis Baker age groups doing battle with the 13 and 14 year olds, while guys like me, in the 55-59 year age group, get to contend with the 8 and unders! I look forward to the day when I am old enough to compete against fetuses. That might be a little unfair, though, given how ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, providing the little devils (apologies to Jeff Roddin here) with the advantage of gills. Then again, they are likely to get tangled up in the umbilicus, especially in relays. All in all, it balances out. Congratulations to Dennis. I am sure you were one blistering fetus in your day!

Makes sense. A competitor could miss their rival's time by a fraction, and try to better it by asking for a time trial. Like a do-over. They can already do that with split requests. They could swim the 50 free, for example, 5-6 times during a meet. Perfectly legal.

I look forward to the day when I am old enough to compete against fetuses. That might be a little unfair, though, given how ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, providing the little devils (apologies to Jeff Roddin here) with the advantage of gills. Then again, they are likely to get tangled up in the umbilicus, especially in relays. Jim, you are one strange dude. As if we needed reminding. (I was also amazed at the 13-yo going 4:38. Sheesh.)

Yards. As per Frank this makes a difference. Wonder why? Frank: I just read the article which Swimming World published. It seems to conflict with the way Leslie's time was denied from the rankings. The article in Swimming World said that KPN set a record in the 400 IM during the a time trials section of the meet. That was perfectly legal because it was part of the sanction process that is stated here: www.teamunify.com/.../18221_17thCHKEliteProAm2008MeetInfo.pdf Notice the sanction # on the entry form for the approved and sanctioned time trial. This does not exist in the Colony Zone entry form and there is nothing mentioned about a sanctioned time trial after the meet. That is the difference and that is one of the reasons why the time was denied from the meet results and for top ten rankings. The other is that, again, until someone proves otherwise, FINA does not allow time trials for any masters competitions and explicitly states that in FINA Rule MSW 3.4 and USMS follows that rule in there rulebook under 102.10.1 A Time Finals are defined in the Glossary of the USMS Rule Books as follows - competition in which only heats are swum and final placings are determined by times achieved in the heats.

The article in Swimming World said that KPN set a record in the 400 IM during the a time trials section of the meet. That was perfectly legal because it was part of the sanction process that is stated here: www.teamunify.com/.../__...08MeetInfo.pdf Notice the sanction # on the entry form for the approved and sanctioned time trial. This does not exist in the Colony Zone entry form and there is nothing mentioned about a sanctioned time trial after the meet. That is the difference and that is one of the reasons why the time was denied from the meet results and for top ten rankings. The other is that, again, until someone proves otherwise, FINA does not allow time trials for any masters competitions and explicitly states that in FINA Rule MSW 3.4 and USMS follows that rule in there rulebook under 102.10.1 A Time Finals are defined in the Glossary of the USMS Rule Books as follows - competition in which only heats are swum and final placings are determined by times achieved in the heats. December 24th, 2008 05:05 PM FINA does not recognize ANY times at a USA-S meet, time trials or otherwise. (Unless dual sanctioned, I imagine, since then it is a USMS-sanctioned meet.) USMS does recognize such times, however, which is why Guthrie and KPN could set national records. As Frank mentioned, the time trials were announced/approved beforehand.

Seriously, though, I am not sure which is more impressive--a 47 year old who can swim this fast, or a 13 year old boy. It would be interesting to see what the bell curve of swimming records is. I assume that Dennis must be close to the world record with that 500. I wonder what the world record is for the 13-14 and 11-12 age groups. Jim...Dennis swam faster than his own 45-49 natonal record which was 4:39 (no WR's since its yards)..same in the fly which was 1:51...I meant to ask him if the meet was sanctioned by USMS and forgot...oh and by the way he only rested 3 days and says he's out of shape right now. he wore an LZR in the free and a B70 in the fly...proof again that (IMHO) these suits have a dramatic effect on "in-season/un-rested" swims. By the way 13-14 age group record is a bit "stiff"...Phelps was 4:26 back in 2000! The 11-12 year old record is a measley 4:41 so no worries! The same kid holds the 200 record with a 1:46...both set this year. Here are some better options: 8/under Boys-- Short Course Event Time Name Club Year 25 Freestyle 13.24 Adam Hinshaw WV 02 50 Freestyle 28.30 Michael Rubottom TSC 84 100 Freestyle 1:01.78 Kent Johnson AH 84 25 Backstroke 15.79 Alex Liang PASA 08 50 Backstroke 33.73 Adam Hinshaw WV 02 25 Breaststroke 17.28 Brandon Conroy SCRA 03 50 Breaststroke 36.85 Noah Sol CROW 06 25 Butterfly 14.29 Michael Rubottom TSC 84 14.29 Brandon Conroy SCRA 03 50 Butterfly 31.50 Michael Rubottom TSC 84 100 I.M. 1:10.97 Michael Rubottom TSC 84

Paul, I just did two things, nearly simultaneously: 1) looked at your new David Hasselhoff avatar, with its encouraging T-shirt caption 2) looked at the 11-12 year old records for the 500 (4:41) and 200 (1:46). I concluded from this: A) Do not ask for whom the Hasselhoff T-shirt tolls: it tolls for me. B) it is possible, though not probable, that a neonate is being born at this very moment somewhere in the world that I can still beat in swimming. Merry Christmas to you and yours. You have given me my 2009 New Year's Resolution: to place somewhere in the Top 10 nationally in the 4-6 year old age group.

Thanks Frank. Wow, that's interesting. Seems like I've heard quite a lot, including from Jeff, that if the meet director/referee announces the time trial at the beginning of the day and opens it to all, the time counts. This "announcment" point was also one of the reasons my time was initially disallowed. Perhaps more meet directors should consider putting a time trial slot on the order of events for their meet, if they think it won't run too long. (Rutgers was done around 1:00 or so.) USS swimming seems far ahead of us in some respects. This would certainly help people who have order of event issues. Paul, there were quite a few masters swimmers in the dual sanctioned yards meet I swam in in NC. First time I had ever seen that, really. Fortress: I was involved in sanctioning a time trial during the 2007 Michigan Masters State Championship. I remember at first I was skeptical about this because of what was said back in 2001 on these forums about time trials. But the organization running the meet ran time trials in USA meets and wanted to offer them for masters. As a guide to set this up, I used the 2007 USA Swimming Rule book because reference to this in the USMS Rule book was a little vague plus I know most of the time we use the rules and procedures of USA Swimming. The first thing I did was make these time trials a separate sanction because I did not want the time trials to conflict with the Championship swim times, individual and team high points since there are awards given out for those. The time trials were going to take place during the morning and afternoon break on the second day of the meet. The order of events for the time trial was listed in the meet flyer as a separate sanction and all swimmers would know the order of events and would be called up to swim in that order. Officials were at there stations and ready to go. Electronic timing scoreboard was ready and manual timers were ready as back up. We had only 5 swimmers swim in these trials out of over 300 swimmers that were at the meet. In one of the swims, Lois Nochman swimming in the 80-84 age group broke her own USMS National Record in the 100 Yard Fly. We filled out all of the necessary paper work for the USMS Record and the pool was measured before and after each session for the Championship meet so that was going to be done anyway. When I turned in the Application for a USMS Record there was some questions about this but basically the time was accepted for the record and the other swims were accepted from the time trials. What I learned is that there are differences from how USA Swimming does time trials and how USMS does them. USA requires a separate sanction and USMS does not. Both organizations require the schedule of events to be spelled out in the meet flyer and followed accordingly during the meet. The results should spell out what swims were from time trials and what were from the meet. There is a way in Hytec Meet Manager to do this and I have seen it in results from USA meets but not from USMS meets. Because we don't require a separate sanction, the swimmer can only swim a maximum of 5 events a day including the time trial swims. As in turned out we were lucky because the swimmers that swam the trials did not go over that limit and would have been disqualified in there 6th event if they had and this could have effected the swimmer in the individual high point and team high point awards. This is also where I learned that time trials swims are only good for short course yard meets when they are advertised in the meet flyer and part of the sanction. They are not permitted for short course meter and long course meter meets per USMS and FINA rules. If the requirements for both USA and USMS are made, then times from these swims should count for both organizations and masters swimmers swimming in USA meets will get credit for the swims for USMS for both top ten and records. As was said before FINA will not count any times from time trials per there rules.

*ahem* What's this? "Karlyn would not be denied, however; she time-trialed the event, finishing in 4:34.65, well under her USMS record of 4:38.27 from 2007." double standard?

Wasn't it in yards at a USS meet? No time trials in SCM and LCM, Frank?! Yards. As per Frank this makes a difference. Wonder why? Frank: I just read the article which Swimming World published. It seems to conflict with the way Leslie's time was denied from the rankings.