Ok, one more freestyle arm question

I don't think any of you know what is meant by EVF. If done properly you should not have shoulder problems. If you do,- consult with Tom let him explain it to you. His concept is nothing like what most of you are talking about. Here is the link be sure to watch all 23 sections of this www.authorstream.com/.../ Fanstone I would still finish on my thigh no matter swimming sprints or distance, just a little lower on the thigh when swimming distance. Too many people watching videos and forgetting the deflection of light rays underwater (refraction). The "I" stroke is a "S" stroke but because we rotate more then we did when the "S" stroke first appeared, the "S" now appears to be an "I". My opinion...

I would suggest the s-stroke, as it is a bit easier on the shoulders. The classic I-stroke, by aussie like thorpe, is very shoulders friendly, done with good technique is easy on the shoulder better that s-shape type. You pull with the lats nearly all the time, there's no change of directions, the upper arm move in an arc-type trajectory that it's the more natural for the shoulders. The key is the patience at the start to position the arm before to start the pull. If you force the EVF too early for you you're looking for trouble for sure. Regular exercise for RC is a must for whatever style of pull. The classic I-stroke require a 90 degrees angle between the lower and the upper arm. There're a lot of different variants of I-stroke, the more your hands go deep in the water( elbow deeper, 90+ degrees) more strain you put in your shoulder and less use of lats.

Sorry for the confusion George, but I wasn't refering to getting shoulder problems from EVF, but rather from stroking out to the side vs. the s-stroke. I haven't experienced shoulder problems either way, but was reporting what my coaches have told me. I am very good at not saying what I mean. What I mean by forcing EVF immediately is trying to hook your shoulders up so that your arm enters almost vertically. I don't know why anyone would swim that way, but I've seen people do it. Hey, Michael, I was referring to the moment I start my recovery. If I am going fast, I tend to end the push sooner, isn't that what most people do? I think I have already asked this question here before. Assuming the last part of the stroke isn't accelerating as much, would it be more efficient to start a new cycle as your hands cross the belly button? I'm not the expert, but I think swimming in an almost-catch-up manner is the most efficient. Someone mentioned Ian Thorpe, and that's exactly how he swims. When I swim front crawl, my recovering hand enters the water about the time that my other arm is under my shoulder, even when I'm going fast. When I do it right, I feel like I'm skipping over the water. It's a weird feeling.

I don't think any of you know what is meant by EVF. If done properly you should not have shoulder problems. If you do,- consult with Tom let him explain it to you. His concept is nothing like what most of you are talking about. Here is the link be sure to watch all 23 sections of this www.authorstream.com/.../ On the contrary, Geo, this is exactly what I was talking about. I haven't seen these slides before, but they are truly helpful to explaining it to age-groupers who are having a hard time understanding the concept of EVF! So, thank you for that!

I didn't realize there was a specific I-type of stroke. I just assumed that was a variant of the s-stroke that he does, considering he does change directions with his hand when he gets to his lower torso, since he is still swimming under his body as opposed to out to the side. Watch videos of him swimming front the front, and it's fairly easy to see this. If you want to call this the I-stroke (never heard of that), then that would be good for someone who wants to compete but wants to save some strain on his shoulders.

The "I" stroke is a "S" stroke but because we rotate more then we did when the "S" stroke first appeared, the "S" now appears to be an "I". My opinion... Well geochuck, IMO you forget the point of view of the swimmers to really differentiate the two stroke, if you call I-stroke the stroke where you get into EVF and your insweep/upsweep is done with the hand out on your side and it don't cross under your body, like showed by Hackett/Thorpe. From the deck with the rotation side-to-side whatever you do, you'll see a 3D S-shape like movement, but if you consider the classic s-shape stroke and the point of view of the swimmers, the swimmers draw a intentional S-shape motion with his hands, in I-Stroke the swimmers draw a nearly perfect I after he get into EVF. Moreover they are based from very different principe, from lift/drag theory the s-shape, from 3rd law of Newton the I-stroke. You can win gold medals with both of them but they're different IMHO.

By the way thanks for the update Tomtopo very good stuff. Here is a good video of Thorpe www.youtube.com/watch I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. www.youtube.com/watch Maybe I need new glasses.

Fistgloves work great for teaching you how to anchor your arm in the water and then use your back muscles to pulls yourself forward. Some people try them once and hate the sensation so much they never use them again, but stick with them and they will seriously improve your efficiency.

The following videos and information may help you. Good luck! The following under water videos are fun to watch and will help everyone understand that every swimmer to greater and much lesser degrees have an EVF. EVF is a catch and all swimmers should want to improve it. Don’t let some tell you that EVF is front quadrant swimming because EVF starts in the first quadrant and continues at the beginning of the second quadrant. Each competitive stroke can be separated into four different segments or quadrants. The front quadrant is where the catch (EVF) “sets-up” the stroke into an effective propulsive position; the second quadrant is where power from a properly set up hand and forearm position occurs; the third quadrant where the release from the power phase and then recovery is initiated; and the fourth quadrant is where the recovery makes the transition to the entry. The all important EVF position or catch is located in the first quadrant and beginning of the second quadrant of each stroke. Tell me what you think of the following videos. Simply copy and paste the URL’s into your browser and the information should come up. Good Luck Coach T. Elbows High By Robert Boder / German translation: Felix Gmünder http://www.svl.ch/ElbowsHigh/ This video will say error – simply delete the error page and it should come up. Faster Swimming With an Early Vertical Forearm Position in All Strokes www.h2oustonswims.org/article...ped_elbow.html swimming.about.com/.../swimtec...opcatchevf.htm In Search of the Dreaded Dropped Elbow by Coach Emmett Hines www.h2oustonswims.org/article...ped_elbow.html www.swim.ee/.../index_example.html www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch Grant Hackett www.youtube.com/watch Ziegler Holds off Laure Manaudou www.youtube.com/watch A picture frame by frame comparison of Thorpe and Hackett www.svl.ch/.../ EVF Powerpoint website www.authorstream.com/presenta...-narration-Imp ortant-anEarly-Vertical-Forearm-Look-Results-Pictures-Search-Dreaded-Dro-w-Entertainment-p pt-powerpoint/ TYPE IN THE LETTERS EVF AFTER IT COMES UP swimming.about.com/.../swimtec...opcatchevf.htm www.youtube.com/profile www.swimmingcoach.org/.../EVF...olskiSMALL.pdf

By the way thanks for the update Tomtopo very good stuff. Here is a good video of Thorpe www.youtube.com/watch I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. www.youtube.com/watch Maybe I need new glasses. I can see how these videos can be seen as a "wide" stroke, but compared to a lot of swimmers that I have seen it is still a "tight" stroke; notice how his elbow slightly comes out but he brings it right back in (the video for the front view).