Ok, one more freestyle arm question

I thought you meant diagonal towards the middle, not diagonal forward. I don't think it's possible to go vertical without going diagonal first.

Sorry for the confusion...that' why I hate typing/writing...the thoughts in my head don't translate too well once I try to type them out. I should have put in the direction of travel to help clarify thigns. I have seen some people try to go vertical straight upon entry...it makes my shoulders cringe.

I think LindsayB said it is more of a early diagonal. From watching some tapes of phelps and others, it appears to be a bit more diagonal first, then vertical as everything takes it's place in the stroke. From your post below it appears that we are on the same page...the goal of the pull that I teach is to get an early vertical forearm which requires you to have a quick catch (early diagonal forearm) prior to the vertical forearm. Like you mentioned; everything has a time and a place in freestyle.

I have come to enjoy the bilateral breathing thing. It helps me stay balanced and go faster while getting enough oxygen. If I'm doing more than 100 yards, I do that weird 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3 pattern. My recovery is like a hybrid of straight arm and relaxed. I don't really worry about it too much--I just let my arm do what it wants to do. I find that if I focus on the recovery, I'll get lazy with something else, and whatever benefit I get out of the recovery doesn't help. Thanks, I find the bilateral breathing throws off my pull but really gets me on target as far as balance. Sounds like I should concentrate more on the pull and worry less on proper recovery form.

From your post below it appears that we are on the same page...the goal of the pull that I teach is to get an early vertical forearm which requires you to have a quick catch (early diagonal forearm) prior to the vertical forearm. Like you mentioned; everything has a time and a place in freestyle. So this is where I get all confused - what is "early diagonal" ? Is it the reaching straight towards the wall with hand/arm, then a slight turn outwards of the hand before the vertical pull? Do you really need to do that? I find when I do that, I get all messed up. Is the vertical pull really bad on the shoulders without the early diagonal?

That's what I say, but I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me on that. I find that most people have difficulty focusing on multiple aspects of a stroke at the same time, and I think that working on the pull is more important that working on the recovery. A good recovery will conserve some energy and potentially increase your turnover; however, if you have a mediocre pull, that won't matter much because you'll be wasting energy in the pull and not going very far per stroke. It might be because of the way I warm up my arms before I work out, but my arms are more relaxed when I recover them almost straight with a floppy hand than when I try to keep my hands below the elbow. I think it's all about just doing whatever is comfortable for you.

So this is where I get all confused - what is "early diagonal" ? Is it the reaching straight towards the wall with hand/arm, then a slight turn outwards of the hand before the vertical pull? Do you really need to do that? I find when I do that, I get all messed up. Is the vertical pull really bad on the shoulders without the early diagonal? Trying to go vertical immediately is terrible for your shoulders because it forces it into an awkward position. Early vertical isn't really a necessary term I think, and can add confusion to an already jargon-filled discussion. Essentially, it means that you begin the catch and get to EVF as soon as possible. In order to go from reach to EVF, your arm has to be diagonal at some point--it's just not physically possible to go from having your arm straight to having it vertical without moving it diagonally. Also, the catch doesn't have to be an outward sweeping motion like many people teach. The new thing is to have a down and directly backward catch followed by a straight arm pull. Our former head coach would teach this to the competitive swimmers and teach the s-pull to the recreational swimmers because the s-pull is supposed to be easier on the shoulders; however, if you're looking to compete, it seems like the straight pull is faster. I find it more efficient and faster, but see what works for you.

It might be because of the way I warm up my arms before I work out, but my arms are more relaxed when I recover them almost straight with a floppy hand than when I try to keep my hands below the elbow. I think it's all about just doing whatever is comfortable for you. I agree with you. It is what is most comfortable and efficient. I find I have better relaxation with a hybrid type recovery too. A high elbow throws off my timing and comfort.

Our coach has us do sculling drills that are basically just the first part of the pull. You do the catch and until you get vertical, then stop and do it again. We do it with two arms at a time, because it's hard to go anywhere doing this with two arms, let alone one. Also, you're not supposed to kick very much. That helps a lot with the catch and the initial pull. I forgot, we do usually 4x25 of these, sometimes 8x25.

Trying to go vertical immediately is terrible for your shoulders because it forces it into an awkward position. Early vertical isn't really a necessary term I think, and can add confusion to an already jargon-filled discussion. Essentially, it means that you begin the catch and get to EVF as soon as possible. In order to go from reach to EVF, your arm has to be diagonal at some point--it's just not physically possible to go from having your arm straight to having it vertical without moving it diagonally. Also, the catch doesn't have to be an outward sweeping motion like many people teach. The new thing is to have a down and directly backward catch followed by a straight arm pull. Our former head coach would teach this to the competitive swimmers and teach the s-pull to the recreational swimmers because the s-pull is supposed to be easier on the shoulders; however, if you're looking to compete, it seems like the straight pull is faster. I find it more efficient and faster, but see what works for you. I absolutely agree with everything here. Another key factor to the EVF is the rotation throughout the freestyle as well. Either way, excellent post!