Ok, one more freestyle arm question

I think the fingertip drag drill is to encourage you to be relaxed during recovery, but that is not how you should be recovering your arms. In my mind, they should be relaxed, pretty close to the water and to you, but not dragging against the water. People recover their arms all different ways (just think of Janet Evans's windmill arms (I think?) recovery, very unique), but recovery is sort of your rest time, so with rotation you should have enough momentum to get them back up to extended pre-pull without wasting a lot of energy. If you are rotating your head too much to breathe or not keeping your body in alignment, you may throw your recovery off, but I take that time as a rest time, such as it is, and try to use very little effort, relying on my rotation and momentum, again, such as it is. The place my coach says to use the most energy is the pull (duh) but all the way through the pull, and not only energy, but as much speed as you have.

I am so disgusted--I've done the TI drills, had lessons, had swim team college kids give me tips, yet I still just can't seem to get the freestyle arm action right. Hard to diagnose virtually, but have you had yourself videotaped? Even if you can't get a professional coach to do over/under water video taping, I recommend getting a friend/spouse/significant other to video tape you. Ideally, have them track you both from the side, but then also from straight on. It would be best if you could have someone get you videotaped underwater. I'd worry less about your recovery over the water and more about your catch and high elbow pull under the water. Many swimmers let their arms drop straight down on the early stage of the pull, losing the major propulsive portion of the pull. At the same time, try to be very conscious of your hip/body rotation. Many swimmers swim too flat; I'm actually a recovering over-rotator.

The fingertip drag drill is used to promote a high elbow recovery as well as demonstrating how loose your hands, wrists, elbows can potentially be. Proper recovery (if there is such a thing given the various styles of freestyle...hence the name of the stroke) is a rotated shoulder almost out of the water with a side lateral raise movement (not a windup movement), slightly bent at the elbow (which is high) with loose wrist and fingers utilizing very little energy throughout the recovery phase and into the beginning of the catch.

Hard to diagnose virtually, but have you had yourself videotaped? Even if you can't get a professional coach to do over/under water video taping, I recommend getting a friend/spouse/significant other to video tape you. Ideally, have them track you both from the side, but then also from straight on. It would be best if you could have someone get you videotaped underwater. I'd worry less about your recovery over the water and more about your catch and high elbow pull under the water. Many swimmers let their arms drop straight down on the early stage of the pull, losing the major propulsive portion of the pull. At the same time, try to be very conscious of your hip/body rotation. Many swimmers swim too flat; I'm actually a recovering over-rotator. Oh, lol, an over-rotator, me too! I am actually finally getting a better feel under the water, am more buoyant, with a better kick and higher body position and improved better rotation. I am very guilty of sort of dying at the pull phase - having been a very bad elbow dropper for my whole life--so this is something I really have to work on,--as well as bilateral breathing--as it seems that when I pull well on one side, the other sides drops.

The fingertip drag drill is used to promote a high elbow recovery as well as demonstrating how loose your hands, wrists, elbows can potentially be. Proper recovery (if there is such a thing given the various styles of freestyle...hence the name of the stroke) is a rotated shoulder almost out of the water with a side lateral raise movement (not a windup movement), slightly bent at the elbow (which is high) with loose wrist and fingers utilizing very little energy throughout the recovery phase and into the beginning of the catch. Thank you for the very nicely defined explanation Typhoons Coach. I will copy this and commit to memory!:bow:

I am very guilty of sort of dying at the pull phase - having been a very bad elbow dropper for my whole life--so this is something I really have to work on,--as well as bilateral breathing--as it seems that when I pull well on one side, the other sides drops. In my opinion, bilateral breathing is not necessary. My left arm drops unless I work on it, but it's getting better now that I'm aware of it--no bilateral breathing necessary. As for the pull phase, what helped me was doing mid-distance pull w/buoy, working on really long, smooth strokes, using a powerful pull. This strengthened my chest muscles, as well as my tris. I started back in May after a 23 year hiatus, but I feel that the pulling sets have really helped my stroke. I am much more cognizant of my physical state in the water than I was as a youth swimmer. This is what worked for me, anyway.

I have come to enjoy the bilateral breathing thing. It helps me stay balanced and go faster while getting enough oxygen. If I'm doing more than 100 yards, I do that weird 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3 pattern. My recovery is like a hybrid of straight arm and relaxed. I don't really worry about it too much--I just let my arm do what it wants to do. I find that if I focus on the recovery, I'll get lazy with something else, and whatever benefit I get out of the recovery doesn't help.

I've been trying to revamp my freestyle after seeing a videotape of myself :eeew: I've been watching the DVD of Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen. There were a couple of things that hit home that I was doing wrong and i think i'm correctly. Perfect example is that i was crossing the center line. I've been faithfully doing the heads up freestyle drill where you finish swimming normally. When i first started doing this, the wider arms felt strange, now they don't. It's been fun to have something just click and feel right. But i'm struggling with the initial pull. I know i'm loosing power and think it is because i'm dropping my shoulder. Anyone have drills to force me to get this part correct so that eventually, it will feel normal?

My forearms are vertical, not diagonal. My coaches teach us to do our strokes out to the side, the way you lift yourself out of the pool rather than the S-stroke under your body. For me, keeping it straight and out to the side is more efficient and faster. Ever since I switched to that, I've been taking an average of 16 strokes per length (not stroke cycles, individual arm strokes), and swimming 30s 50-yard frees at a moderate-to-easy pace (quite an improvement considering last month I sprinted a 33s 50-yard). I've also switched to breathing every 3rd stroke, which has helped immensely. If I go diagonal, I get a little less distance per stroke, so I try to keep it nice and vertical.

I don't think anyone is talking about s shaped or under the body. Most good vertical forearms do start with a angled down(diagonal looking) forearm that leads to the vertical forearm