Training for the 100 fly?

There is a cadre of people who recommend swimming no longer than 50 yards fly at a time, when training for the 100 fly. So, my question is: why? Is there some reason other than preserving shoulders? (And I grant that may be sufficient reason for many.) The only one I can think of -- other than pain avoidance -- is wanting to avoid swimming with sloppy technique. Fair enough, but if you cannot swim 100 fly without your stroke falling apart then I think you have a problem when it comes time to race. I can understand not wanting to do sets of 100s fly with 20 seconds rest -- or similar types of sets with lots of fly and little rest -- that's training for the 200. But never (or hardly ever) swimming a 100 fly in practice? I just don't see why that would be. Would people make the same recommendation if we were talking about training for the 100 back/***/free? If you avoid the 100 fly in practice as too painful then IMO you're setting yourself up to fade badly on the last 25. And 75 or 100 fly repeats -- with significant recovery between them -- is good conditioning for this type of race. (In ADDITION to 25s and 50s, not replacing them.)

There is a cadre of people who recommend swimming no longer than 50 yards fly at a time, when training for the 100 fly. So, my question is: why? Is there some reason other than preserving shoulders? (And I grant that may be sufficient reason for many.) The only one I can think of -- other than pain avoidance -- is wanting to avoid swimming with sloppy technique. Fair enough, but if you cannot swim 100 fly without your stroke falling apart then I think you have a problem when it comes time to race. I can understand not wanting to do sets of 100s fly with 20 seconds rest -- or similar types of sets with lots of fly and little rest -- that's training for the 200. But never (or hardly ever) swimming a 100 fly in practice? I just don't see why that would be. Would people make the same recommendation if we were talking about training for the 100 back/***/free? If you avoid the 100 fly in practice as too painful then IMO you're setting yourself up to fade badly on the last 25. And 75 or 100 fly repeats -- with significant recovery between them -- is good conditioning for this type of race. (In ADDITION to 25s and 50s, not replacing them.) Chris (& Leslie), In my case shoulder preservation is extremally important...but I also find that (again for me) technique is so critical that I like to swim fly at or close to race speed unless doing drills. I train for the 100 (never swim the 200) and in a sense swim lots of boken 100's. I have nothing against people who may want to swim longer distances and more reps of fly...it just hasn't ever been something that I needed to do to prep for a race. Fort...I do a lot of drills: - left are/both arms (w/breath)/right arm. Variations include doing single, double or triple, breathing to alternate sides on the single arm stroke, etc. For me this is the best drill to work on rythym of the stroke. - super slow fly. Baker turned me on to this...start out floating prone in the pool and work thru the stoke at hyper slow speed checking and feeling hand placement, hip movement, light kick. - Fin work. Under water power kicks w/w-o fins. etc. Also...if your seizing up at the end of the race your probably making the most common mistake in fly and swimming with your arms vs. your "core". One last thing....I really think that flexibility is far more important than strength and aerobic conditioning when it comes to swimming fly well & not seizing up at the end of a race.

Fort...I do a lot of drills: - left are/both arms (w/breath)/right arm. Variations include doing single, double or triple, breathing to alternate sides on the single arm stroke, etc. For me this is the best drill to work on rythym of the stroke. - super slow fly. Baker turned me on to this...start out floating prone in the pool and work thru the stoke at hyper slow speed checking and feeling hand placement, hip movement, light kick I like these drills too, and fly drilling in general...they obviously help technique but even help fly conditioning if you do them enough. Another one I like is the one the age-group coaches here call the "Nemo" drill: 3-4 kicks underwater for each pull. I find it really helps on timing (efficient fly is all about timing/rhythm, IMO). Plus it is something you can do for slightly longer distances, it is still tiring but not unbearably so.

I like these drills too, and fly drilling in general...they obviously help technique but even help fly conditioning if you do them enough. Another one I like is the one the age-group coaches here call the "Nemo" drill: 3-4 kicks underwater for each pull. I find it really helps on timing (efficient fly is all about timing/rhythm, IMO). Plus it is something you can do for slightly longer distances, it is still tiring but not unbearably so. Chris, a couple of seasons ago when I decided to be an IM'er for nationals and was forced to work on the evil stroke the "nemo" drill was what probably helped me the most. So here's a question...ever try it in free of back? Take two strokes than "dive" under and kick for several yards...

Ok... my recommendation for your next step is to train for the specific issue... but still only train 25s and 50s. If you have trouble on the end of the race, train to get stronger at that point you are weakest. If you are doing 100s... or 200s (or even 500s), swim free on the front, then go the last 25 or 50 fly. Heart rate is up, and you are fatigued just enough, but not from blowing out your shoulders from training the front part fly (after short rest, too) just to get to the point where you are hitting the piano, but can't train there because you are hitting the piano.... a catch-22. Focus on perfect technique and keep the hips high. .... and keep up the speed training.

If you go to my "swan dive fly" post, "Bud" has responded with two great links to articles from H20 Houston about pulsing the core as a way of training fly. If I were smarter with links, I would put them here. Hmmm. Let's see if I can: Nope. Wait. Whoa! I'm better than I thought: Here's one: Slip-Slid’n’ Away. And here's the other! Vive le Papillon! All credit to Bud. I found these articles helpful. Good luck.

This thread reminds me of the Lewis Carroll quote, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." My first question was how fast or what does Leslie want to accomplish with this 100 fly. Simply feel good and not die; best masters time; lifetime best - and by how much; national record; #1 in the nation; a specific time; something else?! For me personally, I trained very differently when I - Got within a couple of seconds of a 100 fly lifetime best vs. Went a lifetime best vs. Went significantly faster than lifetime best So it all depends on 1. your background (which I think most of us know) and 2. your goal(s) (I don't know) For me, lifetime bests are irrelevant. I truly don't care; I feel like I'm in my second swim career. So, as far as goals, I'd say I'd like to do masters bests and continue improving. If I do that, rankings will take care of themselves. And I am forced to adapt my training to take into account the intrusions of RL and my propensity to get injured. Like Paul, shoulder preservation is extremely high on my priority list. And there is a huge difference between lifetime bests at 47 and 35. You're young and strong, hotstuff! Don't get me wrong ... I'm nasty competitive ... I have stretch times in mind. And I think the 100 fly is an event where I should be able to drop a lot of time if I train properly. This thread has given me lots of good advice. I'm going to try the NEMO drill for sure, and also do more fly drilling in general. But I'm pretty convinced that I have to do more than 50s in practice. Thanks Isobel! I will check out those links.

This thread reminds me of the Lewis Carroll quote, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." My first question was how fast or what does Leslie want to accomplish with this 100 fly. Simply feel good and not die; best masters time; lifetime best - and by how much; national record; #1 in the nation; a specific time; something else?! For me personally, I trained very differently when I - Got within a couple of seconds of a 100 fly lifetime best vs. Went a lifetime best vs. Went significantly faster than lifetime best So it all depends on 1. your background (which I think most of us know) and 2. your goal(s) (I don't know)

Two more things that have helped me with my fly. 1) Kicking fly on my back When Mark Gill was my coach, he said "real men don't use kickboards" and so I began kicking butterfly on my back. This helped a lot with the amplitude of my kick and body positioning. I think it also helped me focus on kicking from my core. 2) One-arm fly with the other arm at the side I am trying to remember who taught me this but for the last few years, when I do fly drill I go one length with one arm at my side and then switch over on the following length. This helps with timing and my kick, it emphasizes kicking from the core at the right time. My fly leg in my 400IM has gotten a lot better and I feel more relaxed in the water. Both of these drills have been helpful to me. I am looking at doing some other ones too for next year. Thanks Doug. I kick fly a lot on my back too. But I've heard from a couple USA coaches that it's better to kick on the stomach for fly ... I'll try the one arm with the arms down at the side too. I did make it through 2 fly sets last week (ande's 20 x 50 and Greg's 10 x 75, except I did some drilling on the latter). Aquafeisty: I'm thinking Paul uses yoga to get all flexy for fly.

Thanks Doug. I kick fly a lot on my back too. But I've heard from a couple USA coaches that it's better to kick on the stomach for fly ... I'll try the one arm with the arms down at the side too. I did make it through 2 fly sets last week (ande's 20 x 50 and Greg's 10 x 75, except I did some drilling on the latter). Aquafeisty: I'm thinking Paul uses yoga to get all flexy for fly. Fort...I agree...dolphin kicking on your back is good to develop dolphin kicking on your back....yes there are some overall benefits in core development and general leg strength but I think SDK on your stomach/side is more race specific. And yes...yoga is what I primarily use for flexibility but in all honesty I stretch ALL the time....I do get some funny looks for it in airports, the super market, etc. Fort....here's one for you: 4 x 100's power kick no interval (rest till hear rate drops below 120). Go from a dive, kick as hard and fast as you can SDK (ideally to 15m) then surface and swim very easy free to the wall, execute a fly turn into another 15m SDK, repeat for all 3 turns...when you finish the 100 go right into 10 wall up's...on the last wall up get completely out and go right into 50 single leg lifts (20 left, 20 right, 10 both)....this is done lying on your back holding legs out straight 6" off the ground.