Clovis in 09??

Jim, Senior Games and Indy almost overlap. With you in the Bay area, you could do Senior Games and then fly to Indy. Too much for me to fly up to the Bay area and then on to Indy. Glenn

A quick look at flights for next May shows me that I can get from Boston to Fresno with one stop if I want to spend $566. There are flights for $463 if I want to make two stops. Most of these trips take between 8-10 hours. OK, I did the same thing for Seattle to San Juan. The cheapest is $463 on Delta. It requires two stops and takes over 11 hours to get there, over 14 to get back. And since it's Delta it will cost even more to checks bags, etc. There is a one stop option on Continental for $488. That cuts the time down to 11 hours each way. I don't really have a horse in this race. If San Juan has a good bid for the meet I think maybe they should get the meet. I suspect it will have the lowest attendance of any Nationals meet in long time, though. Another consideration is August is hurricane season.

From the Wash DC area: to PR Non-stop to San Juan PR, 3:55 flight time, $529 per person for a July 09 flight. No time change. to Fresno 1 stop - 9:14 total time, $550 per person for flight on same dates. 3 hour time change. It's all about the starting point. And for me, starting in the same time zone is a huge plus. Portland really destroyed me coming back home. But as in all things, it's my choice and I choose not to go to Clovis. But I know that I would choose to go to San Juan.

It's all about the starting point. And for me, starting in the same time zone is a huge plus. Portland really destroyed me coming back home. But as in all things, it's my choice and I choose not to go to Clovis. But I know that I would choose to go to San Juan. I agree. A key reason I'm not going to Clovis (aside from preferring to do LC at Indy) is that the time change kills me. Not worth it.

I mentioned this in the Nationals forum, but even though bids have been pretty sparse, those that have hosted Nationals lately have done a tremendous job. Fresno might not be most people's idea of a vacation destination, but as others have mentioned it puts you in striking distance to plenty of places that are (lots of NPs, etc.). How much can you really do other than swim during the meet anyway? And really it's not difficult to get to from the East Coast. No, you're probably not going to get a direct flight, but you should probably be able to get there with a single connection. Since the meet is "Nationals" you can't expect it to be within driving distance for you very often.

What we are seeing here in the last four postings is exactly what I said in the fourth paragraph - location is the largest factor in the decision of the marjority of the participants. Last year it took about nine hours to get from San Francisco to San Juan and about 11 hours to get back, it was a one stop. It was also a very inexpensive ticket (my guess because it was the middle of hurricane season ticket). I would like to see the championships move around the country so that all members will have a chance to compete in a championship that is relatively nearby. When talking about San Juan, it is a minimum of a two hour flight from the nearest US airport. michael

Gee, I havent been on the forums in a while and it looks like I have been missed. Pacific proposed the rule about having national championships in one of USMS's LMSCs. Puerto Rico (Federacion Puertorriquena de Natacion) is in a different federation that USMS.Guam (Guam Swim Federation) another American territory is also in a different federation. Our national championships would be a guest of Federation and we would not have full control of our meet. A few years ago we did a survey of top ten swimmers about why the chose to compete at the Nationals. The biggest influence on whether to attend or not was the location of the national championships - if it was close to where they lived they more likely would attend. If the meet is held outside our LMSC, our championship could only attract those who could afford to travel over the 1000 mile minimum to attend the meet in Puerto Rico. We would lose the local USMS membership from attending as there would be no local USMS membership. A year ago I would not have thought of why we should even have this rule, the Puerto Rico came along. I swam at the natatorium in San Juan. It is a great facility; nice locker rooms, fast pool and when we were there, it had good weather. I know most of the officers of the Federation and I have the highest respect for all of them - they are great people. But they are in a different federation. (BTW would those who swam at the Puerto Rico meet raise their hands (Rob and Mark you can put your hand down) Did not see Paul there, was Swimstud there? We tried to promote the meet and it was great meet. Of course, my good feelings about the meet have nothing to do with the fact that I am the current Pan American Champion in the mens 55-59 400 Free and 800 Free. ) We know by looking at the attendance of the national championships, they have a population of competitors that is highly regionalized. When reviewing the recent long course nationals, about 35% of the competitors came from two LMSCs and when totaling the swimmers who came from the four adjacent LMSCs it totals about half the competitors. For the swimmers who attend the nationals, they can expect good competition, great facilities and generally a well run meet. The Championship Committee has worked hard to be sure that high standards are maintained. One of the advantages of being a USMS swimmer is that if the championships are being held in your area, you can participate in a great meet - if held outside the Federation we cannot offer a local meet to any of the membership. I believe that our national championships have been a great way for US Masters Swimming to showcase Masters swimmers. At most USMS championships, we usually get some newspaper stories and upon occasion we also get television. We are able to tell our story about fitness and healthy living. We showcase our athletes, we get people interested in persuing an active healthy lifestyle. This is great free publicity and promotes the USMS brand. For the local LMSC, having championships in their area or nearby has resulted in an increase of membership, if only for a couple of years. But this is a way to get people interested in Masters swimming, (of course, we just have to find a way to keep them members, but we can address that in another thread). I do not believe that our national championships should be a way to promote aquatic vacations for vacations sake. There are many great aquatic venues in the United States, we should find all those venues then WORK to get one of those venues to host the championships. I think there should be a rule or at least policy that we do not accept bids from outside the United States. It take much time and effort to put together a bid, then to travel to convention to present the bid. This rule would put the brakes on anyone outside the US from spending the time and money to bid for the championships. OTS I dont know if everyone appreciates the distances involved. Seattle is closer to Los Angles than Miami is to San Juan; San Francisco is closer to Denver than Miami is to San Juan; Houston is closer to Chicago and Miami than Miami is to San Juan and Washington, DC is closer Kansas City than Miami is to San Juan. (note Miami airport is the closest major airport to San Juan, Puerto Rico). While there have been questions about what calling this a national championships as most of the top ten swimmers in any age group choose not to participate, and there has been a call to name it a national festival, the meet has been within the boundaries of the United States Masters Swimming. For those who want to go to on vacation to compete (there was Perth - Did I miss you there Paul?) Coming up is the Masters World Games in Sydney, the UANA meet next year maybe Mexico, the South American Championships usually in November and the XIII FINA World Masters Championships in Sweden. I am sure all of those places will have great places to swim and you can use your frequent flyer miles to get there. What's wrong with PR? It's no worse than going to Clovis from NYC! San Juan is about 1000 miles closer than Clovis. If you go to Clovis, be sure to hit Yosemite, if San Juan there is Old San Juan, the Arecebo radio telescope and a national forest about an hour out of San Juan. Another example of "all politics are local"? Mr. Moore, would love for you to go public and defend your position on this? I can give you the reasons why Pacific made the proposal. Same thing. Less time change. Better beaches! I don't see how it's any different than when LC Nats were held in Hawaii. It was SCY that was held in Hawaii. Hawaii is part of our Federation. Puerto Rico is not Would love to know who proposed THIS little gem. Pacific Our "friends" in Pacific Masters...as I noted above I'd love for one of them to come forward with an explanation. In my humble opinion the more we can find extremely desirable "vacation" locales that will host a USMS nationals the better. Along with being a great place to go spend some fun time...it also has one of the nicest pool facilities in the world. Also, since PR is considered a "unincorporated territory" of the USA and its residents are "statutory US Citizens" why do our friends in NoCal want to discriminate? I disagree, USMS has a duty to its members to promote swimming, and I believe nationals should be held in an LMSC. You may differ. The difference about PR is that it has its own swimming federation and is not part of our federation or USMS While I certainly love pools & towns like Austin and Indy, I think having a wide variety of locales is great. Besides, if we can get people to come to Piscataway, New Jersey for a Nationals meet, I gotta believe a location that's actually attractive (e.g., Puerto Rico) would draw a great crowd. Before we automatically rule something out, why don't we try it? Puerto Rico did not draw a large crowd for the Pan American Championships. If you wish to go international swim competitions please see the list of competitions above. I would suggest that you go traveling internationally, great venues, great people. If you like to travel, you will have a lot of fun. I just dont think our nationals should do the traveling. michael

Quote: Originally Posted by poolraat Since Senior Games are at Stanford next spring I will need to choose between the two. And Stanford is a closer drive and the Bay area has much more to offer. __________________ Actually, I believe they're scheduled for August. I only write that because I was curious about a conflict with LCM Nat's when I saw a tentative "estimate" of when they were to occur. I guess I should have checked the dates first. I was assuming they were in June like they were in 2005 when I went. The choice between LC Champs at Indy and Senior Games is a no brainer. It will be Indy all the way. Of course there is another meet that may conflict with Indy. The USA Swimming Western Zone meet is at about the same time (in Hawaii) and when my son qualifies I'll definitely be going to Hawaii with him.

I challenge you to pull the stats someday and would bet you would see that after proximity, the next biggest factor in drawing people out of the shadows and attend a meet is a great location. Define a great location. Hawaii is a great tourist location and it had the lowest number of swimmers in a short course meet in nearly twenty years. I have never heard that Baltimore is a great tourist location and it has the record for the largest long course meters meet (except for worlds which was four times the Baltimore total). I understand Cleveland had a great meet - I have never heard anyone say Cleveland was a tourist mecca - but it could be that I have led a sheltered life. Portland is a great location. I spent one afternoon going to the downtown with my sister and her family otherwise I was at the pool or with other swimmers. I think we want to go a nice tourist type place, but how many actually get to do tourist things at a swim meet? With all due respect to the folks in Fresno it is one of the most crime ridden, boring cities in the country; http://www.worst-city.com That worst city.com is just a someones hit job. He was trying to be funny and was unsuccessful. Go to cityrating.com for facts. It is a central valley city and like central valley cities it has its own set of problems, but it s crime rate is about the same for cities of its type. I have relatives in the valley and an aunt and uncle who live in Clovis. When I was a kid and visited them, there were orange orchards in Clovis, now there is a lot of tract housing. Now that you are in Phoenix you should be happy to know that it has twice the murder rate of the US (and Clovis) (oh and watch out for your car in Phoenix, it has three times the car theft rate of the rest of the US). And while crime rate is higher on the west side of the Fresno (a very poor section of Fresno) I would guess it would be less in the other sections of the city- Clovis Aquatic center is 12 miles north of downtown. I want to remind people that I'm not going to Clovis because of a bad meet I had there 10 years ago. Jeff, are you a time traveler? Clovis North just opened up last December. If you have a bad meet in Clovis, it was most likely at Clovis East, not at the brand new Clovis North Aquatic complex. Why is there a West Coast bias when it comes to hosting major meets? Interesting question. Lets look at the last ten years Non-west coast Indianapolis 1998 SC Ft Lauderdale 1998 LC Minneapolis 1999 LC Indianaplois 2000 SC Baltimore 2000 LC Cleveland 20002 LC Rutgers 2003 LC Indianapolis 2004 SC Savannah 2004 LC Ft Lauderdale 2005 SC Coral Springs 2006 SC The Woodlands 2007 LC Austin TX 2008 SC West Coast Santa Clara 1999 SC Santa Clara 2001 SC Hawaii 2002 SC Federal Way 2001 LC Tempe 2003 SC Mission Viejo 2005 Lc Federal Way 2007 SC Mt Hood 2008 LC It should also be noted that the west coast has about 40% of USMS membership. To run a meet, you need to have at least two courses for SC and a warm up pool and for long course it should be at least a nine lane 50 meter pool with a warm up pool. Encouarge your friends to bid. IMHO Championship has not done a good job of getting people to bid (full disclosure I am a member of championship committee). michael

SHORT COURSE YARDS MEET AT CLOVIS Clovis Masters and Fig Tree Masters will be organizing a meet at the Clovis North Aquatic Center on 8 November. This would be a great time for those who want to see the facility to compete and "feel" out the facilities before nationals. More info is at: www.pacificmasters.org/.../08closcy.pdf michael