beyond suspicion? you saw her?
I thought we all agreed it was extremely suspicious and were mostly arguing about the likely "punishment" based on some (I say implausible) exonerating evidence? Oh, wait, I took the bait you left out for Geek and Smith. They can carry on!
Lindsay, if she produces a supplement which contains unlabeled clenbuterol, you are willing to let her off the hook, so to speak? She becomes an innocent victim, rather than a doper? Personally, at this point I have no interest in anything she or her attorney have to say.
If it turns out that one of the supplements she was taking had unlabeled clenbuterol in it then I figure she should get the standard suspension. That's how Kicker was treated.
If the supplements are from a reputable manufacturer that a reasonable person would expect to be clean then my personal judgment of her moral character will be less severe than if she set out to deliberately use clenbuterol. The next question would be how much effort she put into ensuring the supplements were clean which would have bearing mostly on just how foolish/reckless she was.
I'll wait and see what they come up with and then come to a conclusion as to whether it is nonsense or not.
This is where we differ with no apparent likelihood of reaching agreement. I feel that intent is relevant to whether someone is a lying cheater. You apparently do not. In the course of the various threads we've had three examples of athletes that tested positive and certainly committed doping violations but aren't in my opinion "lying cheaters", certainly no evidence that they lied has been brought up.
Your feelings aren't relevant and neither are mine. The rules she chose to break are relevant. Personally, I could care less how she feels. She obviously is probably feeling a little different now that she was busted using banned substances. I will also not engage in parsing of the level of accountability she has for her own actions. She doped, she was busted, she has some cockamamy series of excuses, like all other busted dopers yet we need to feel for her and examine her intent, crazy.
She has admitted to also taking a dozen supplements. Am I supposed to feel sorry for her when she assumed the risk?
I asked before, are clenbuterol and Advocare even manufactured in the same plant? If Advocare doesn't manufacture clenbuterol, how would it get into their products anyway? A contaminated ingredient?
A contaminated ingredient is entirely possible. Apparently the ingredients in our food come from as far away as China. Ascorbic acid, for example. 80% of the world's supply of ascorbic acid (better known as Vitamin C) comes from China.
"Ascorbic acid is a common ingredient in everything from cosmetics to baked goods. It is used to make bread softer and more uniform, and some Midwestern bakers are working hard to find adequate supplies..."
From: "Olympics take a healthy bite out of your wallet"
www.kansascity.com/.../730642.html
Ascorbic acid is just one bread ingredient. Mine also contains niacin, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, calcium sulfate, monoglycerides, and azodicarbonamide. Who knows where those chemicals are manufactured.
And remember the contaminated ingredient that was found in pet food a year ago? "...melamine, a chemical used in fertilizers in Asia and forbidden in pet food, has been detected in the wheat gluten used by Canada-based Menu Foods.... FDA officials said the wheat gluten was imported from China but was not yet known to be used in human food. All wheat gluten coming from there will now be reviewed, they said...."
Does anyone remember what suit Hardy, Kirk and Jackson wore at trials? Who who was wearing a LZR, one of those TYR suits or a B70?
No one has mentioned that piece of it. Since MS was such a gung-ho LZR dude, and (one of) the replacement girls were TYR swimmers, I wonder if that had anything to do with the lack of action. It would be a great way to get the suitmakers out of the beds of governing bodies going forward.
Hardy and Kirk are Speedo athletes and Weir is TYR... no clue what suits they wore. As for Jackson, isn't she done w/ college swimming now?
Supplement contamination is not a matter of opinion or assertion, it is a matter of verifiable scientific testing in a lab.
You mean, kinda like urine testing which, by the way, she flunked. Let's keep that in the front of this whole discussion.
And now you are in cahoots with her atty, he dangled the hook and you jumped right on it.
Supplement contamination is not a matter of opinion or assertion, it is a matter of verifiable scientific testing in a lab. If Hardy can't show that her supplements are contaminated then the whole supplements angle won't get her anywhere.
Lindsay, with all due respect have you ever spoken with anyone who has been a USA national team member, Olympian, NCAA swimmer, etc?
The reason I ask is that the arguments you are making are ridiculous to ANYONE who as ever competed at that level because it has been pounded into their heads that ANYTHING they take into their bodies THEY are responsible for verifying that its not illegal, contaminated, or whatever pathetic excuse du jour you or they want to make....its that simple.
JH made the choice to take a bunch of supplements...it was HER (and Salo's) responsibility to confirm if they were legal/contaminated.
You continue to ASSUME that she CHOSE to break the rules.
Lindsay....this is entering the realm of bizarre. She took supplements which included Clen and got busted...she broke two rules;
- using a banned substance
- the rule of being responsible for confirming the legality of what she was taking
Do I have proof she knowingly took the drug,no,but I think her suddenly becoming the US's second fastest freestyler is suspicious.By the rules she should be off the team.I hope Tara Kirk sues Shubert for lebenty gazillion dollars.
I do know that JH is a lying cheater
Intent is irrelevant
This is where we differ with no apparent likelihood of reaching agreement. I feel that intent is relevant to whether someone is a lying cheater. You apparently do not. In the course of the various threads we've had three examples of athletes that tested positive and certainly committed doping violations but aren't in my opinion "lying cheaters", certainly no evidence that they lied has been brought up.
