Lactate tolerance

There is too much "recovery time" that allows for the body to remove/clear lactate. 6x50 ALL OUT on 3:00 produces lot's of lactate... and you can hold race pace technique, without your stroke falling apart. Training a "broken" stroke will only produce limited results, no matter how much lactate you processed. Your muscles aren't responding in an optimal fashion, so you're preparing for a similar result. In University we did a test, they actually checked our lactate levels and found out that it took at least 5x200 really easy to flush the lactate completely. So, it stands to reason that max effort sets on longer rest is better for the 100-200 distances.

6x50 ALL OUT on 3:00 produces lot's of lactate... and you can hold race pace technique, without your stroke falling apart. Training a "broken" stroke will only produce limited results, no matter how much lactate you processed. Your muscles aren't responding in an optimal fashion, so you're preparing for a similar result. In University we did a test, they actually checked our lactate levels and found out that it took at least 5x200 really easy to flush the lactate completely. So, it stands to reason that max effort sets on longer rest is better. Yes, indeed it does. This is one of my favorite sets when I want to do something with speed. I generally do this on about 2:00 but by #5 I am falling apart on the back halves. I'll give the 3:00 a shot.

I tried this set on Sunday. I train SCM so I set 2:30 intervals for myself. I think I went out a bit hard in the first set of 4x150. It resulted in a not-so-fast first 200, but I slowed down a lot on the recovery after that and my times picked up. Anyway, I managed the intervals quite comfortably but never got to feel that 'jello' feeling in my muscles. I pushed the third 200 particularly hard and came within a hair's breadth of vomiting but, still , no sore muscles. My fourth 200 was 5 seconds slower than my third and it took all my willpower not to bail after at the 100m mark! So I am wondering if I did it wrong. Why didn't I get that jello feeling in my muscles and rather got the puking sensation? It seems that it was more of an aerobic than a lactate set for me. Today I did a 200 all out for time and on the final 25 my arms 'went jello' but the time I did today was much faster than anything I did on Sunday. I don't really understand the "puking" vs "jello" descriptions. If you felt like vomiting and died to the point where the last 200 was 5 seconds slower than the previous one, I'd say you were well above your lactate threshold so this was in no way an "aerobic" set. Probably your lactate did not spike to the same degree as it did in the 200 all out. Were you within 10 seconds of your best recent rested swim? What was the time difference between your "all out" 200 and your repeats? There should not be much difference between the two, the 200s in the set should be close to all out. To give you a frame of reference: I held mid-1:53s on the set from a push, almost even-splitting (56/57). My best rested time this year was a 1:44. At an unrested meet last fall I went a 1:49 (though it turns out I was getting sick...still, I don't see myself going faster than 1:48, MAYBE 1:47, during the season). I do think of this set as training more for the 500 than the 200, if that helps at all.

So the levels of exertion were different. And so was the focus. Sunday was all about completing the entire set whereas today was a once off for time. And this is the reason why I don't think that kind of set may be ideal for lactate tolerance. I'm sure you are building up some lactate, but not enough for the jello feel. Mentally you know you've got a lot more set to go, so you don't put it on the line like you would in a one-off swim.

Kirk, Another possibility is to use "active rest" more, and this might be appropriate for you as more of a distance type. Here is one set that we did where my lactate levels were pretty darn high by the end. All intervals were 2:15 in my lane; other lanes adjusted as necessary. Everthing was from a push. The idea was not to spend very much time on the wall, to recover while swimming. 4 x 150 cruise: feel stroke, get ready to swim fast 1 x 200 FAST 3 x 150 recover, just make interval 1 x 200 FAST 2 x 150 recover 1 x 200 FAST 1 x 150 recover 1 x 200 FAST Ideally, the last and first 200 are not that different (much easier said than done) and are within about 10 seconds of your best (rested) 200 time. It kiind of reproduces what a longer race feels like. I tried this set on Sunday. I train SCM so I set 2:30 intervals for myself. I think I went out a bit hard in the first set of 4x150. It resulted in a not-so-fast first 200, but I slowed down a lot on the recovery after that and my times picked up. Anyway, I managed the intervals quite comfortably but never got to feel that 'jello' feeling in my muscles. I pushed the third 200 particularly hard and came within a hair's breadth of vomiting but, still , no sore muscles. My fourth 200 was 5 seconds slower than my third and it took all my willpower not to bail after at the 100m mark! So I am wondering if I did it wrong. Why didn't I get that jello feeling in my muscles and rather got the puking sensation? It seems that it was more of an aerobic than a lactate set for me. Today I did a 200 all out for time and on the final 25 my arms 'went jello' but the time I did today was much faster than anything I did on Sunday.

I don't really understand the "puking" vs "jello" descriptions. If you felt like vomiting and died to the point where the last 200 was 5 seconds slower than the previous one, I'd say you were well above your lactate threshold so this was in no way an "aerobic" set. Probably your lactate did not spike to the same degree as it did in the 200 all out. Were you within 10 seconds of your best recent rested swim? What was the time difference between your "all out" 200 and your repeats? There should not be much difference between the two, the 200s in the set should be close to all out. I do think of this set as training more for the 500 than the 200, if that helps at all. Sorry, I should have explained that better. I usually get the puking sensation when (I assume) I am oxygen starved. It seems to me to be more of a fitness issue that arises when I do fast repeats with very little rest in between. I don't necessarily associate it with aching muscles (or perhaps I am just too nauseous to notice). The jello sensation (someone elses term earlier in this thread...or perhaps in another:o) refers to that feeling of muscle failure in the final stages of extreme exertion: the last 15m of a 100 or the final 50 of a 200. I can have this feeling without necessarily feeling like I want to puke. The 200's I did on Sunday (with the exception of the last one) were all within 10 seconds of my recent best time. The 200 I did today was only half a second off my recent best time. But today I did a 500 warm up, 12 x 25's kick, two medium-fast 200's to get into fast mode, and then rested for about 4 minutes before I went for that time. So the levels of exertion were different. And so was the focus. Sunday was all about completing the entire set whereas today was a once off for time.

Okay, now I KNOW my coach lurks on this forum! Today's first main set: 8 x 50 on 3:00 from the blocks. Quick, someone suggest an easy set! Don't you all think working on two-arm backstroke drills is a good lactate tolerance set? Actually, it was kind of interesting. Our last set was 4 x 250 free descend on fairly short rest. A primarily-distance swimmer I train with thought that was a much more difficult set than the 50s -- "no comparison" he said -- while for me the 8 x 50 was the harder set. It wasn't that he wasn't trying on the 50s, he just couldn't get into the "red zone." I guess it goes to show you that not everyone responds the same to a given set.

I think I know the feeling. Like when you swim a 100 or 200, and take the first 50 all out, and then try to hold on. By the end you're about to die. I haven't felt that for months, since a couple meets in 2007 when I went out too fast. I think maybe I've subconsciously adapted to avoid it. I always try to pace appropriately so I don't hit that barrier.

Okay, now I KNOW my coach lurks on this forum! Today's first main set: 8 x 50 on 3:00 from the blocks. Quick, someone suggest an easy set! Don't you all think working on two-arm backstroke drills is a good lactate tolerance set? You know it's funny... last night I was swimmin', you know folks, and after practice there was this decent fellow in the next lane. It looked like he was pretty good, and I watched him for a few minutes, then I wondered what set he was doing... I noticed a piece of paper stuck to a kick board, a little wet around the edges, and there was a work-out written on it... So I check the paper... 5x(4X50) first 4 on 1:10 second on 1:00 third on :50 fourth on :40 fifth round on 1:20 Descend set 1-20 last one ALL OUT That set looked pretty familiar... So I ask this decent swimmer where he got the work-out. He answers, "from the internet." He was on short rest at the time and he continued on... Then I started to think it over a little more... That set looked very familiar, close to something I've posted in my 2-week cycle... So I keep watching this decent fellow... Soon he's getting more rest, and he says, "You know this set is great, because as you descend you get tired trying to make the short interval, but then the abundance of rest on the last four makes you feel so good. The last 50 All-out feels better than anything. I'm able to do this set and go pretty near as fast as I've ever gone from a push in work-out." So I continue to watch him push a 27.3 LCM on the last one... "Whoa, good work man..." we continue to chat... Then he looks at me, "hey, are you that guy with the goggles, who posts work-outs?" Ummmm.... (This is where I feel deja-vu, only different) So, right there it changed for me... It's hard to explain the feeling I was left with, except to say that it was genuine... It turns out he is a master swimmer nearly 40, and doesn't train with a club because of his busy work schedule. We talked for quite some time about different training approaches and the reality of swimming as we age, and how priorities can shift altering the ideal program. Trying to figure out what is most effective for an aging athlete became the next phase of the discussion, and that's when I agreed that it isn't so much about doing what works to be an Olympian, (That is very intense, and could cause burn-out) but doing what works to maintain and prolong race preparation over the years... Two very different concepts.

Anyway, I'm finally getting to my point here. The standard way to do this is using fixed sets like this, but has anyone tried something like swimming absolutely all-out until you hit that lactate "jello" feel where you feel yourself slowing down? At that point maybe do some very slow "active rest" swimming then repeat, etc. The goal being to build up the time/distance you can keep up that all-out speed. It seems like actually confronting that lactate wall like this would be a great way to help with lactate tolerance in races. Well it seems someone has. Here is an excerpt from the Men's Health article on Ryk Neethling which Paul Smith posted. It seems that part of Ryk's Wednesday practice is exactly what you are proposing - all out until failure. "If you want to do 50 to 600m races, then you want to focus on shorter, intense lactate-type sets (Ryk’s Wednesday afternoon session - as fast as you can go from start until failure). If you’re training for swimming in an Ironman, then you need to focus on longer distance sets, but you need to “swim smart”." David Moseley January 2005 Incase you missed the post here is the whole article. Tantalizingly, it doesn't say anything more than that on the lactate sets although there is lots of other good stuff in the article.