Butterfly/Breaststroke Turn Rule Interpretation

The first question is related to the "simultaneous touch": The 2008 USA Swimming Rules and Regulations book states for both strokes: "The touch shall be made simultaneously at, above, or below the water surface." Does this mean that one hand can be above the water and one below the water as long as they touch at the same time? We all seem to remember as kids that the touch had to be simultaneous on the same horizontal plane. Yes, unlike BitD (back in the day) hands no longer have to be on the same plane when they touch. That means that you can start to set up your turn as you come into the wall by dropping one shoulder down prior to the touch. For breaststroke, the book also states that throughout the stroke "the arms shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane...", so if that is the case, then the swimmer would have to touch the wall at the same level. Ah, but the streamline/glide portion is not a 'stroke', this refers to while the arms are moving thru the motion. Since you are at the end of a complete 'stroke' at the turn, this rule does not come into effect. For breaststroke, the book states: "...after each turn when the swimmer leaves the wall, the body shall be kept on the ***." Must the swimmer be 100% flat as soon as their feet leave the wall? No, it refers to the fact that the shoulders must be rotated to the ***. So a swimmer can leave the wall with thier shoulders just barely rotated to the *** BUT the rule concerning the arms being in the same horizontal plane WILL come into play if the swimmer starts thier arm pull before they get thier shoulders turned to parrallel (or nearly so from the S&T judges view) to the pool bottom. For butterfly, it states: "Once the turn has been made, the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall." The rules for body position prior to the feet leaving the wall for *** and Fly are the same. As long your shoulders are even _slightly_ past vertical to the *** you are legal To further complicate things, for the backstroke to breaststroke turn in the IM, the rule book states: "Once the legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breasstroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke." Does anyone have any insight into these rules? Thanks! The best way to think about IM is to break it into 4 sections by stroke. All turns during each stroke portion must be legal for that stroke and each finish of each stroke portion must be a legal finish for that stroke. While this has no real affect on Fly or Free, it does have meaning on Back and the Back to *** transitions. By that I mean during the backstroke portion you can perform a backstroke flipturn if the next length is backstroke but at the back - *** transition you must touch the wall with any portion of your body while rotated to your back. Once you finish you can turn any way you like. but you have to leave the wall according to breaststroke rules as you have finished the backstroke portion. Paul

Breaststroke, simultaneous touch: Yes, one hand can be above the water and one below as long as they both touch at the same time. Breaststroke, horizontal plane throughout the stroke: The "horizontal plane" is in the stroke rule and applies to the stroke itself not to the touch at the wall. It's the turn and finish rule (not the stroke rule) that applies to the touch at the wall. Breaststroke, body shall be kept on the ***: the body must be on the *** when leaving the wall. 100% flat is hard to judge, but "on the ***" is not. "On the ***" is different from on the side, and breaststrokers have been disqualified for leaving the wall on their sides. This rule is different from "shoulders...at or past the vertical toward the ***" for fly and back-to-*** on the IM (interesting that this IM language is different from the breaststroke language, something for me to investigate). Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

Breaststroke, body shall be kept on the ***: the body must be on the *** when leaving the wall. 100% flat is hard to judge, but "on the ***" is not. "On the ***" is different from on the side, and breaststrokers have been disqualified for leaving the wall on their sides. This rule is different from "shoulders...at or past the vertical toward the ***" for fly and back-to-*** on the IM (interesting that this IM language is different from the breaststroke language, something for me to investigate). I find this interesting and want to take it up with our district official. in the fall I attended an officials class, mostly to get caught up in all the rule changes from the early 90's when I stopped swimming. she told the class that on all turns back or ***, that as long as the body was not past 90 deg that it was ok. meaning on back stroke the officials should not see your back and on the other strokes they should not see your chest. going to print out this thread and discuss this with her.

I may have simplified it a bit but what rule book breaks out the difference between strokes in the middle of the pool and the last stroke before a turn or a finish with regards to arm position in the streamline? It doesn't, but I was thinking of backstroke where's it obvious you can do something different on the last stroke into the wall. For that reason I was thinking that last stroke into a turn is treated differently. Which also begs the question--and it's been asked here before but I don't know the exact interpretation of the rules--can you come into the wall in breatstroke with only a pull and not a kick? If your timing is off at all this can happen routinely and I've never been sure if this is illegal or not. The rules definitely state that a pull must be followed by a kick, but does this also apply going into the turn?

Which also begs the question--and it's been asked here before but I don't know the exact interpretation of the rules--can you come into the wall in breatstroke with only a pull and not a kick? If your timing is off at all this can happen routinely and I've never been sure if this is illegal or not. The rules definitely state that a pull must be followed by a kick, but does this also apply going into the turn? I was DQd for this during a 400 SCM IM a few years ago, having not bothered to look at that particular rule for, oh, thirty years or so. First time I was ever DQd for Beautiful Stroke, my fav. I thought that it was funny that the world-class swimmers seemed to be gliding into their turns without that short stroke we used to take, but found out the hard way!

Which also begs the question--and it's been asked here before but I don't know the exact interpretation of the rules--can you come into the wall in breatstroke with only a pull and not a kick? If your timing is off at all this can happen routinely and I've never been sure if this is illegal or not. The rules definitely state that a pull must be followed by a kick, but does this also apply going into the turn? Yes, you must complete a stroke cycle which for breaststroke is defined as one pull followed by one kick even into a turn. It's why you see short strokes on some turns because otherwise it would only be an arm stroke with no kick. Paul

No, the swimmer does not have to complete the cycle before touching the wall on the turn (or finish). The last sentence of 101.2.4 (Breaststroke turns and finish) says: "...during the last complete or incomplete cycle preceding the touch." A complete cycle is not required prior to the touch. A swimmer cannot take two pulls prior to the touch (I have seen swimmers do that and get disqualified). It has to be an arm pull and a kick in that order, but if the wall comes up before the swimmer can kick, an incomplete cycle is legal preceding the touch. I heard of one case in my area this year in which the official was going to disqualifiy the swimmer for an incomplete cycle preceding the touch. Fortunately, the swimmer knew the rule and explained it to the official, who I hoped checked it in the rule book. Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

The "horizontal plane" is in the stroke rule and applies to the stroke itself not to the touch at the wall. It's the turn and finish rule (not the stroke rule) that applies to the touch at the wall. I think it useful to divide the rules up into the start, the turn, and the stroke. The turn includes the actual turn as well as the last stroke into the turn and after the turn until your head breaks the surface. Agreed? I disagree with what Paul said about the "horizontal plane" thing NOT applying to the glide/streamline. It does. It only doesn't apply to the last stroke into a turn.

I disagree with what Paul said about the "horizontal plane" thing NOT applying to the glide/streamline. It does. It only doesn't apply to the last stroke into a turn. I may have simplified it a bit but what rule book breaks out the difference between strokes in the middle of the pool and the last stroke before a turn or a finish with regards to arm position in the streamline? I haven't seen it broken out to that respect. Now, of course, not being on the horizontal plane makes staying legal for your next stroke very difficult if not impossible to do but I was more pointing out that one does not have to be perfectly horizontal at the finish of a length of *** or fly and it is faster to start to drop one shoulder just prior to touching the wall in preparation for your turn. Paul

I think I am even more confused now than I was before????