After seeing some accomplished swimmers get disqualified in Austin, our masters group has been trying to interpret the rules on both the butterfly and breaststroke turns.
The first question is related to the "simultaneous touch":
The 2008 USA Swimming Rules and Regulations book states for both strokes: "The touch shall be made simultaneously at, above, or below the water surface."
Does this mean that one hand can be above the water and one below the water as long as they touch at the same time? We all seem to remember as kids that the touch had to be simultaneous on the same horizontal plane.
For breaststroke, the book also states that throughout the stroke "the arms shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane...", so if that is the case, then the swimmer would have to touch the wall at the same level.
There is no such added description for arms in the butterfly stroke.
The second question is regarding the body position upon leaving the wall:
For breaststroke, the book states: "...after each turn when the swimmer leaves the wall, the body shall be kept on the ***." Must the swimmer be 100% flat as soon as their feet leave the wall?
For butterfly, it states: "Once the turn has been made, the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall."
To further complicate things, for the backstroke to breaststroke turn in the IM, the rule book states: "Once the legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breasstroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke."
Does anyone have any insight into these rules?
Thanks!
Yes, you must complete a stroke cycle which for breaststroke is defined as one pull followed by one kick even into a turn. It's why you see short strokes on some turns because otherwise it would only be an arm stroke with no kick.
Paul
Ugh, what the heck was I thinking? My appologies for the above. I should know it was wrong but I'm glad that someone else pointed it out. Once again, my appologies for being such a bone head.
Regarding my statement earlier on the *** stroke rule:
Breaststroke, body shall be kept on the ***: the body must be on the *** when leaving the wall. 100% flat is hard to judge, but "on the ***" is not. "On the ***" is different from on the side, and breaststrokers have been disqualified for leaving the wall on their sides. This rule is different from "shoulders...at or past the vertical toward the ***" for fly and back-to-*** on the IM (interesting that this IM language is different from the breaststroke language, something for me to investigate).
And the reply to that:
I find this interesting and want to take it up with our district official. in the fall I attended an officials class, mostly to get caught up in all the rule changes from the early 90's when I stopped swimming.
she told the class that on all turns back or ***, that as long as the body was not past 90 deg that it was ok. meaning on back stroke the officials should not see your back and on the other strokes they should not see your chest.
I did investigate the difference in language between the breaststroke rule and the IM back-to-***. It probably is an oversight. USA Swimming changed the language of the breaststroke rule to match the FINA language. In spite of the change in language, the rule is the same in both instances: the shoulders must be at or past vertical when the feet leave the wall. I asked Bruce Stratton, Chair of USA-S Rules & Regulations Committee, the following: "So 'kept on the ***' means at or past vertical and breaststrokers should not be disqualified for leaving the wall on their sides?" His answer was, "That is correct." So the trainer at the officials class was correct. I will include this in a future Rules Corner.
Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee
I have an even more fundemental question about what constitutes a "simultaneous touch". I maintain that the rule requires two hands in simultaneous contact with the wall prior to turning or at the finish. If one hand gets to the wall a bit before the other it is not an infraction. A two hand "non-simultaneous" touch would require touching with each hand independantly one after the other. This could afford a swimmer an advatage of hitting with one hand then dragging the other past the wall after the turn is in process. However as long as both hands are on the wall together at some point it shouldn't matter how they got there.
So what say you all?
Does the "both hands simultaneously" mean that both hands must make initial contact the wall at exactly the same instant? If so would an accidental touch of the wall with one hand prior to a 2-hand touch be a DQ at the instant of initial contact? (OK not likely but it happens with young swimmers who misjudge distances)
I view simulataneous as being at the same time, so if I see one hand touch before the other, I will rule that a non-simulateous touch. Advantage is not supposed to be a judging criteria, judges are supposed to judge on what they see not what they think they see.
I totally agree with hulk. If all you have to do is place both hands on the wall at any point it kind of nullifies the whole two-handed rule in the first place.
Agreed. Both hands/arms are supposed to be moving simultaneously on the same plane throughout the strokes, so why wouldn't they touch together? Not touching at the same time indicates other stroke problems as well.
Simultaneusly means at the same time.
Also see Situation #3 in the USA Swimming Situation Resolutions - Stroke & Turn, Breaststroke:
"In a breaststroke turn, the swimmer touches with his left hand and then touches immediately after with his right hand....The coach argues that the turn is legal because both hands were on the wall at the same time. Does the disqualification stand?
Yes, the rule is very clear....'At each turn, the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously...' Therefore, the hands must touch at the same time, not one after the other."
The USA Swimming Situation Resolutions can be accessed on the USA Swimming website, go to volunteers, go to officials, go to training, and find the Situations Resolutions for Stroke and Turn; Breaststroke comes up first.
Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee
Kathy, perhaps you can also clarify the exact criteria for judging whether a dolphin kick occurred "during the pull" versus immediately prior to the pull? In another thread one person said when the hands came apart, another said at the widest part of the outsweep, the FINA rules are not very specific.
There has been much discussion about this as everyone watches the Japanese breaststroker. Below is the FINA interpretation, but it can be hard to see from the deck in an official's position, especially off the start due to the splash. In the video that I have watched, he is still doing the dolphin kick during his first arm pull, so I don't see them calling that; it still fits within that interpretation.
FINA Interpretation: A dolphin kick is not part of the cycle and is only permitted at the start and turn whilst the arms are pulling back to the legs or after the arm pull whilst wholly submerged followed by a breaststroke kick.
In USMS rules the dolphin kick is permitted during or at the completion of the first arm pull. The arm stroke is first in the stroke cycle, so a kick may not start the stroke. If the official with jurisdiction clearly sees that the kick was initiated before the arm pull, that is a DQ. If it is unclear to the official whether the swimmer had started the arm pull first, the decision is usually in favor of the swimmer. As far as "exact criteria", that can vary with with different swimmers' arm strokes (some tend to drift hands apart as they start to pull and some pull with clear force to start with). Most officials have very good common sense about seeing the difference between a stroke that starts with an arm pull versus one that starts with a kick. The key is that it has to be clear to the official that there was a violation.
I recall the "widest part of the outsweep" being used as a measure for the head to surface after the first stroke underwater off the start and turn, which favored the swimmer trying to make it to the surface. I don't see officials using that as a measure for initiation of the kick.
Kathy Casey
