Hi all!
In this thread: forums.usms.org/showthread.php
...there are a lot of different opinions on how to lift weights in combination with swimming. The opinions are all spread out in between other comments and quotes so I thought I would start a separate thread about this topic as I think it might be of value for everyone to get it sorted out how and why you should lift weights in combination with swimming. If you know of another thread with exactly this topic pls let me know and i will add this comment in that thread instead.
My strong belief so far is the following (not at all stating that this is the truth, but it is the best theory I have heard so far):
You lift weights to become stronger
If you are stronger you need less % of your total capability to travel at the same speed you did before you bacame stronger.
This will lead to that you can swim at the same speed for a longer period of time OR simply do the same distance as before, but faster
This means that both sprinters and distance swimmers benefit from becoming stronger.
You don't want to build muscle mass, since that creates drag. However, for most of us this is not a problem because if you train on a regular basis in the gym, 3-4 times a week in a very focused way you might add on 0,5-1,0 kg/year....if you are under the age of 30. Above this age you tend to add on much less if anything at all.:cane:
You become stronger by lifting heavy weights. High reps does not make you stronger, it increases your endurance capabilies. Endurance you typically practice in the pool. I therefore focus on sets of 3-6 reps with heavy weights. The next week I focus on fast movements (beacasue heavy lifting is often a rather slow movement), reducing the weights to 60-70% of max to practice fast movements under pressure (like swimming, but to the extreme). The week after that is for high reps letting the muscles rest a bit but dont let them rest completely....then I start all over again.
I typically focus on basic exercises like: squats, dead lifts, bench presses, chins and a variety of stomach and lower back exercisesVery interested to hear your opinions of the above and also your own experiences.
/Per
Former Member
I drink a lot of milk. Did they have milk back in 1977?
Jazz, see if you can go 22 seconds for the 50, when you're 50, that would be impressive.
I drink a lot of milk. Did they have milk back in 1977?
What, if any, supplements did you use to help you gain the 30 pounds (and I do not mean this as an accusation, I'm just curious)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by knelson forums.usms.org/.../viewpost.gif
I really think the bottom line is there's more than one way to train that's effective. You can swim fast by never lifting a weight, you can swim fast by lifting weights a lot. If you're doing something that seems to be providing results for you then stick with it.
That is the line that this thread has been waiting for. :wave:
forums.usms.org/.../user_online.gif forums.usms.org/.../report.gif
Quite, and I think you have to be willing to try things you haven't tried before. Get a feel for what works for you. Perhaps it is the very variation itself that will do the magic.
I know Nick Brunelli did lots of kicking after coming back from shoulder op. Because of his op, it was the only thing he could do in the pool without injuring his shoulder. For the same reason he couldn't lift weights. Fully fit and racing again he goes 19.17 50scy and ties for first with Roland Schoeman in the Texas Invitational. Was it entirely because of his focus on kicking? Or was it because of his neglect of weightlifting? I have no idea. All I do know is that this choice of focus worked for Nick and he will probably pursue it until the returns are not so great anymore and then start to look for a new focus.
For my own part, I already practice Yoga and do lots of aerobic training. I feel I am starting to hit a wall having trained for about 9 months after a 24 year break. However, I am a lousy kicker and have never spent more than 10 mins in the gym. So now I am going to focus on lots more kicking and finally getting myself into that gym and lifting some weights but all the while trying not to lose my head entirely in my new focus and being careful to be balanced about everything: not forgetting my sprinting, still doing some endurance work, technique work, stretching etc.
I just think that if you are pursuing one direction and you have reached the point of dimininshing returns then move in another direction and see if that will give your progress some momentum again.
Syd
Whoa, people...
Interesting debate...
Ummmm.... Let's agree to disagree, but let's not be disagreeable.
It all depends on the event(s) you're training for, your goals, and your natural predispositions. (range of motion, etc.) Answer all these, and you'll find the program that works best for you...
Right... but what about the original thread?
Considering the 50/100 free is anywhere from 30-60 strokes
the solution is not so black and white.
Having power/strength is good, but having sprint endurance over
30-60 strokes is better.
That's why I recommend this;
Alternate Max weight (heavy weight, 8-12 reps) one day...
With Max repetitions (light weight, 40-60 reps) the next day.
Do this for at least six months, and you will be happily surprised by
your performances in the pool. (even in the 200 meter events)
See, distance per stroke is a requirement in swimming, even at top speeds... So alternating high reps one day and low reps the next day gives your muscle the maximum LENGTH AND strength. You need both to go faster in the water.
All I know is I feel much better in the last 15 meters of a race because of this program. Of course this may not work for everyone, but if you haven't tried it, how do you know it doesn't?
I just think that if you are pursuing one direction and you have reached the point of dimininshing returns then move in another direction and see if that will give your progress some momentum again.
Very well said.
People greatly overestimate the importance of supplements. I'd say for about half of the time I've been lifting I didn't use any supplements at all. They are kind of expensive, and while there is a lot of research supporting the use of certain supplements, the benefits for me have been rather small compared to my overall progress. The ones I have used are:
Multivitamins
I've been doing this since I was a kid. Just making sure I cover all the essential nutrients.
Fish oil caps
This is maybe something I should read more about. It has that general overwhelming "good for you" vibe that nobody seems to question. Lately I've been buying omega-3 eggs instead of taking the pills.
Creatine monohydrate
Oooh, controversial! I generally take 5g a day. Used to do it before workouts, but I never noticed any acute effects. It seemed more like I would get a little performance boost in the weight room after several days of building up the creatine levels in my body. Early last year I would forget to take my dose all the time, and I basically gave it up for a while. Then I had a conversation with a friend of mine about creatine, how people misunderstand it (it's not a hormone), and how it's been shown to enhance performance. And he asked me, "If it's so great, why aren't you using it anymore?" Good question, so I started back up this fall.
200 or 2,000? I know the OP said 200 and you are quoting him, but I am hoping he omitted a zero, because swimming 200 yards a day is the equivalent of basically taking a bath.
It's a very intense bath. I think I'm going to start a training log on this forum, similar to what Ande has done. People ask me a lot of questions about my training, most of which amount to, "Are you really as crazy as I think you are?" Maybe I am. A training log might help everyone understand to what extent.
To be clear:
1) I agree that weight training is important and effective...to a point. As I said it is going to have more of an impact on someone in their teens/20's and on older adults in helping to prevent osteoporosis.
2) Where I disagree is in how important it is in your average masters swimmer who has limited time and who would benefit far more from more technique work, more focus on flexibility (and by the way the incredible amount of strength that yoga can develop) and kicking.
3) Kicking, shoulder surgery and swimming fast; there has actually been a few people who have written over the years about athletes making incredible comebacks after shoulder surgery and having to go to kick only training, Nick is one, Natalie another and there are quite a few masters swimmers as well (myself included...twice).
4) 21.5 vs 49.1: jazz you got it wrong...there is no insult intended or put down of your times. You have tossed out some things such as putting 30 lbs of muscle on and only training 200 yds a day as leading to your success. Sure you dropped your 50 time but as I guessed your 100 time shows that the added bulk and lack of more swimming yardage has your 100 time way off where it should/could be with more balanced training.
5) Endurance kills speed; sorry Fort but that is false. A base of endurance training is key in anything over the 50...even Gary hall Jr. put in massive amounts of base training as a teen (people forget he was 1:33+ in the 00 his freshman year a Texas). Nystrand does heavy early season training, most college teams put in heavy yardage and massive amounts of kicking early season than "shift" into more specific training modes defined by individual events. Now keep in mind that endurace training for a sprinter does not mean going into the disance lane...Phelps, The Race Club and many others obtain and keep this aerobic base through spinning (myself included) and focus pool time on quality.
Yes weight training is important, yes we should experiment and find what works for us and yes we should be open to experimenting. My problem with Jazz is he has found one way that has improved his 50 at age 22 by focusing his time in the weight room not the pool and is saying that same approach would benefit masters...I disagree.
5) Endurance kills speed; sorry Fort but that is false. A base of endurance training is key in anything over the 50...even Gary hall Jr. put in massive amounts of base training as a teen (people forget he was 1:33+ in the 00 his freshman year a Texas). Nystrand does heavy early season training, most college teams put in heavy yardage and massive amounts of kicking early season than "shift" into more specific training modes defined by individual events. Now keep in mind that endurace training for a sprinter does not mean going into the disance lane...Phelps, The Race Club and many others obtain and keep this aerobic base through spinning (myself included) and focus pool time on quality.
Hey, I didn't say that's what I'd thought ... I said it's what I'd heard. :thhbbb:
I agree. Any distance over 50, you gotta have some endurance. I'm actually looking forward to some basic aerobic training after a lot of speedwork. I'd love to do pilates and yoga, and have no doubt of their benefits. However, I only have time for so much, so swimming, running and core work get preference (although I might spin 1x week this winter). Fortunately, as an ex-gymnast/diver, I'm already pretty flexible. :thhbbb: Not that more wouldn't be better.
BTW, as I said on another thread, I'm going to re-focus on kicking for 4 weeks beginning in Jan. I think this is good advice, and I've been mentally lazy about it with the exception of SDK work.
