Hi all!
In this thread: forums.usms.org/showthread.php
...there are a lot of different opinions on how to lift weights in combination with swimming. The opinions are all spread out in between other comments and quotes so I thought I would start a separate thread about this topic as I think it might be of value for everyone to get it sorted out how and why you should lift weights in combination with swimming. If you know of another thread with exactly this topic pls let me know and i will add this comment in that thread instead.
My strong belief so far is the following (not at all stating that this is the truth, but it is the best theory I have heard so far):
You lift weights to become stronger
If you are stronger you need less % of your total capability to travel at the same speed you did before you bacame stronger.
This will lead to that you can swim at the same speed for a longer period of time OR simply do the same distance as before, but faster
This means that both sprinters and distance swimmers benefit from becoming stronger.
You don't want to build muscle mass, since that creates drag. However, for most of us this is not a problem because if you train on a regular basis in the gym, 3-4 times a week in a very focused way you might add on 0,5-1,0 kg/year....if you are under the age of 30. Above this age you tend to add on much less if anything at all.:cane:
You become stronger by lifting heavy weights. High reps does not make you stronger, it increases your endurance capabilies. Endurance you typically practice in the pool. I therefore focus on sets of 3-6 reps with heavy weights. The next week I focus on fast movements (beacasue heavy lifting is often a rather slow movement), reducing the weights to 60-70% of max to practice fast movements under pressure (like swimming, but to the extreme). The week after that is for high reps letting the muscles rest a bit but dont let them rest completely....then I start all over again.
I typically focus on basic exercises like: squats, dead lifts, bench presses, chins and a variety of stomach and lower back exercisesVery interested to hear your opinions of the above and also your own experiences.
/Per
Former Member
Don't Kill me George (it's was a tough question to answer).
Muscular symmetry and cardio vascular excellence should be the key focal points of every athlete, swimmer, and human being. The adaptation of your muscles and nervous system to stress (weight training and cardio training) will allow you the opportunity to reach your goals. So, unless you have a goal you want to achieve, the question “what kind of weight training is best”, As we grow older our muscles begin to shrink or atrophy, it’s important that we lift a weight that will maintain the appearance we like and one that will help us swim faster. It’s very difficult to increase the size of your muscles, and most people who are worried about getting “too big” or muscle-bound and fear drag or the loss of flexibility are kidding themselves (a rare anecdote or embellishment at best).
Symmetry is the key to muscular fitness. Give opposing muscle groups equal attention, so your body can maintain flexibility. When one muscle, let’s say your lat’s (often referred to as the prime swimming muscle) becomes too strong, swimmers may begin to drop their elbows (huge stroke flaw). Muscle groups can be thought of as pushing and pulling machines or extension and retraction forces. Here is a list of exercises I do that hit major muscle groups:
Curls and Triceps extensions
Pull-ups and Military Press
Leg curls and Leg extensions add lunges
Sit-ups and Back Raisers
Push-ups /Flys and Back Rows
Calf raisers / Soleus and Toe to Shin exercises (breaststrokers feet)
Pull-overs and EVF exercises
Fourteen exercises in all, I perform all exercises to failure and my repetitions are dictated by my adaptation level (when you do the same exercise the same way, your body will adapt and a status quo should be expected). I mix repetitions and resistance to fool my body and know I’ve done a good job when I feel an uncomfortable (sometimes sore) feeling the next day (not a usual practice). Everyone’s body adapts to stress in different ways and unless you’re a coach and cannot cater to individual needs, you should develop your own specific workout regime.
Swimmers and athletes in general are often oblivious to muscular symmetry training and the results can hinder your range of motion. It’s normally not lifting heavy that causes the loss in range of motion but rather the over-powering of one muscle group at the neglect of another.
In swimming, most athletes (not all) over-emphasized “pet swimming” exercises, pull-ups/chin-ups and push-ups. Most swimmers neglect the muscles that are responsible for “setting-up” your hand and forearm to get into an effective propulsive position. An early vertical forearm (EVF) position is not a style of swimming and is incorrectly categorized as “front-quadrant” swimming ( every stroke has four quadrants). There are twelve muscles in or near your shoulder that are responsible for the positioning of your forearm and hand while you swim. The muscles that can stop you from dropping your elbow (a stroke flaw that differentiates every swimmer in the universe) cannot be trained by hand-paddles, vasa trainers (the way they’re currently used) and pull-ups but by incorporating EVF exercises). All this means that effective weight training for swimmers and athletes require a routine that emphasizes symmetry.
With all of this being said, cardio vascular and muscular symmetry is also key for over-all fitness of an individual. If you’re not happy with your times or how you look, re-examine your training symmetry.
in 100m free LCM :
The reign WC is Magnini, 6'1, 165lbs, sleek, atletic but nothing to write home about impressive muscles.
euhm...look at the photo...this is a relatively muscular body to my standards. I would be very surprised if some of the muscle mass doesnt come from the gym time he has spent. More muscles can be found here: www.filippomagnini.it/media_en.php
/Per
I almost forgot about the part where Paul makes excuses for his inability to gain muscle.
I drink a lot of milk. Did they have milk back in 1977?
Jazz...no excuses...simply put that's what happens when your training in excess of 15k a day 6 days a week, lifting, running stadiums...and achieving some small level of success back then and as a masters swimmer
As I said again (and again) weight training is very important...in balance and not at the expense of what I consider (for masters swimming) more important types of cross training..
Your telling people on this forum that swimming 200 yards a day, focusing your free time in the weight room adding 30lbs of muscle and only swimming a 50 is the basis for your success...and I'm saying I think thats not the best path for people that would want to have far more success much longer into their lives.
And you didn't answer my question...what supplements did you incorporate into your training to put on 30lbs in 12 months?
Your telling people on this forum that swimming 200 yards a day
200 or 2,000? I know the OP said 200 and you are quoting him, but I am hoping he omitted a zero, because swimming 200 yards a day is the equivalent of basically taking a bath.
Jazz....you throw bits and pieces out and never really give the kind of detail people would like for someone who is advocating that he has found the "Holy Grail" of training for the 50!
Here's the deal, 21.5 is a respectble time in the 50 free but even in the masters realm you have some work to do:
Top 10
50 Freestyle SCY Men 18-24 (2007) # Name Age Club LMSC Time
1 Daniel W Farnham 23 SKY Kentucky 20.34
2 Geoffrey A Meyer Jr 24 PAFC Delaware Valley 21.04
3 Christopher S Smith 22 WH2O Southern Pacific 21.37
4 Peter A Hagens 24 RAMS Pacific 21.47
5 Brian M Goldman 21 PNA Pacific Northwest 21.59
6 Michael Krayer 24 NCMS North Carolina 21.64
7 Brett T Bannan 24 UNAT Pacific 21.75
8 Shane Copsey 24 CMS Colorado 21.77
9 Zachary Hansen 24 IM Illinois 21.80
10 Chris Bernard 21 FLAQ Florida Gold Coast 21.95
10 Justin Stephenson 24 DAMM North Texas 21.95
Your emphasis on weights first in my opinion means you'll dead end sooner not later and its doubtful you'll be able to extend that 21.5 into a decent 100:
100 Freestyle SCY Men 18-24 (2007) # Name Age Club LMSC Time
1 Daniel W Farnham 23 SKY Kentucky 45.41
2 Geoffrey A Meyer Jr 24 PAFC Delaware Valley 45.83
3 Jonathan P Russell 24 WH2O Southern Pacific 46.48
4 Peter A Hagens 24 RAMS Pacific 46.58
5 Christopher S Smith 22 WH2O Southern Pacific 47.45
6 Michael Krayer 24 NCMS North Carolina 47.68
7 Chris D Bernard 21 FLAQ Florida Gold Coast 47.73
8 Jason Lyons 22 WSU Inland Northwest 47.93
9 Shane Copsey 24 CMS Colorado 48.32
10 Devin F Saez 23 LVM Southern Pacific 48.51
There's a lot you could most likely learn from quite a few of your elders here on this forum, and with the strength and raw speed you have you might be able to really show us something...but it sounds like you have your mind set on "what works for you" so I'll wish you good luck and hopefully we'll get to race someday!
PS: No I don't think creatine is controversial as I in fact have tried it and found mixed results. I can also say that my guess is at least 80-90% of most elite USS and College swimmers use it and things like Muscle Milk, Glutamine, Cytomax, etc. etc.
Its one of the reasons in my opinion you see more fast swims in season as they all are tremendous aids in recovery....this along with the new technology in suits and the advent of SDK's in fly/free/back, flip turns in backstroke and dolfin kicks in breastroke have led to most of the time improvements the last 10 years.
Good articles. I have gotten into yoga this year, and although a real newbie can definately see strength and flexibility improvements, especially in the core. I have tried Pilates, and as of yet, it does not appeal. Perhaps I have not found the right instructor yet, so I have not scratched that off my plans of things to try.
Jazz Hands, I would not discount what the older, experienced members of the forum have found. They have been training a long time, and have already tried and discarded many things. I still believe that training is individualized. What works for one, may not work for another.
If you are already reasonably strong and flexible, mat pilates is useless. I agree. I think working with the machines would be helpful though.
I'm willing to try a lot of new workout strategies and fine tune my training, etc., but I would never try creatine. I'm sure it probably makes your stronger though.
Jazz,
You have had a breakthrough and that is a great thing. I know the giddiness that can induce and hopefully it motivates you to even greater heights.
There are some great things about masters swimming. First, you have (hopefully) decades of swimming before you; you can afford to experiment with different training methods, different events, etc. It would be boring to do the same thing year after year! You are trying something different, that's great. I look forward to hearing how it works out for you in the coming years.
Another thing that is great about masters is: one particular season is not a life-or-death thing. Take the long view; if you try something different and it doesn't work, oh well: maybe next year. It isn't like you are threatening your livelihood or anything. Success is in the striving, and all that.
The inner scientist in me is not going to accept your conclusions as "the" best method (if there is such a thing) and negate what has worked for me and others for a long time. Yours is just one data point, after all. I think that is all Paul is saying by putting forth all those names, not to denigrate what you've accomplished. It doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong, though. Work at it, tweak it some, try some other events -- let me know how it works out.
I have to say that your method doesn't appeal to me, regardless of its merits. I like lifting -- I do it 2-3 X a week for more than an hour, at an intensity probably greater than my pool workouts. But I could never use it as my main source of exercise. Plus I hate the 50 free. Plus my wife would probably throw me out if I gained 30 more pounds of muscle. (My only consolation would be that it would be harder to do She'd still manage it, I'm sure!)
Despite disagreeing with your overall conclusions, I like some of what you say and if you are motivated to continue on that path, go for it. Good luck!
Chris
OK....I have had my fun with our resident Millennial today....here's a couple of links to some other types of alternative weight training/cross training I have experimented with and find pretty interesting:
- www.crossfit.com
- www.fitnessanywhere.com
I almost forgot about the part where Paul makes excuses for his inability to gain muscle.
In college I got introduced to doubles, weight lifting and yoga and although I ate 6-8x a day and thousands of calories could not put weight on...funny how things have changed with the advent of legal (and illegal) supplements...would have been interesting having access to creatine, protein powder, Glutamine, etc. etc....which by the way Jazz care to share any more details on your "nutrition"
I drink a lot of milk. Did they have milk back in 1977?
