Dara Torres-Amazing

Like others on here have said already.....How many others have tried the regimen that she is doing? Not many from what I know......so who is to say that the Smiths, Fort, Jeff or anybody else in here could not have some surprising results using her formula. Every record breaker in the books in every sport technically is an anomaly, because every last one of them has done something that NO ONE else has ever done in the history of that sport. And just why is it a fallacy......there are people swimming these days that are swimming times faster today than they ever did growing up. Read the article on Jeff Barrett And Geek.....just where do you start your comparison to what she has done? Oh that's right from the point of view that she must be dirty right? Good starting point for an objective opinion. An objective opinion starts with the assumption that you don't know the outcome....let the facts steer you to the truth....show me one fact or a bit of something to prove me that you are right! I can point you to a whole lot of factors that have led me in the direction I believe.

That statement implies that she is cheating or hiding something from everyone, at least from your point of view. That wasn't my intention. It was a poorly worded way of saying that it is impossible to prove a negative.

...or is just against women in general? Do you know the circumstances of her life? Passing judgement on someone else is not the way to make a point. You obviously have read nothing I've ever posted about Title IX or women in sports or the fact I have two daughters. That's a low blow and not even remotely close to what I have said. I could care less if she's a woman or a man, I'd be skeptical either way. She's not heroic in my definition of the word hero. It's a term tossed about too lightly these days. She has a single minded dedication, both physically and financially, to her goal. She won't be a hero to my daughters, no way. She is potentially inspirational but hero is a big big stretch. Of course, some called Marion Jones heroic also, go figure. And wasn't Barry Bonds once heroic? How about Roger Clemens and Floyd Landis? Be careful tossing that word around for sports figures.

And by the way....Barry still has not been proven guilty....suspicious absolutely....but not guilty. Now, come on! Bonds gains 50 pounds of muscle after the age of 35 in the Era of Steroids and tests positive for both steroids and amphetamines. Yeah, he's a real hero. There may be no "proven guilty" with Bonds. He got immunity for testifying and can now only be prosecuted for perjury. Still, I have no problem with concluding he's guilty of using steroids and cheating. And why is expressing an opinion or thought about his guilt (or someone else's suspicious conduct) a big deal? We're not held to a criminal standard of proof in forming opinions. And, please, let's not trot out the old slander and libel nonsense! Geek may be many things (another 25K swim warrior?), but being a sexist is NOT one of them. Personally, I think parents need to go easy on the professional athlete as hero and role model.

And by the way....Barry still has not been proven guilty....suspicious absolutely....but not guilty. Tracy, this will be my last post on this subject...and you quote above is the perfect time for me to exit. You've twisted a hell of a lot that some of us have tried to discuss here...in subtle ways that remind me of my radical friends on the right and left of the political spectrum...always avoiding the specific's of what is being questioned and immediately going to the easy route of accusing us who question as attacking...pretty sad. Bonds case and your support of the fact that he was never proven to be guilty in spite of the fact he did admit to using the clear and the cream (sports.espn.go.com/.../story, the incredible physiological changes he went thru and the simple fact that you believe with all your heart as George does that will a little bit of stretching, the latest fad training regime, and $100k a year in over the counter supplements anyone over 40 can achieve the level of success Dara has...I remind you the success comes after 7 years off and from somebody who'd times were at the elite end of the spectrum as far as human performance for swimming...not a masters swimmer trying to dial in some better technique are all wonderful in the realm of hero worship...but sadly "blind" in the real world we live in. Wonderful things are done in sports everyday...break thru's occur occasinally, you choose to accept blindly this is one of them and attack those of us who are tired of seeing cheating going on at every level of sport. I hope Dara never tests negative, I hope we have witnessed a profound breakthrough in sports...but I refuse to be intimidated out of questioning feats such as this by anyone and sorry Jim but I/we who love the sport we put so much time in won't "give it a break" because the real world needs people who don't blindly worship others and are willing to ask hard questions. By the way regarding McGuire, Andro was illegal per the DEA but not by MLB...nice eh? oh I guess breaking a federal law doesn't matter as long as baseball doesn't care!

Never said he was a sexist...I have read his posts before....just kind of wondering why he brought that up as a point and what it had to do with the subject being discussed. Heck if anything the fact that she is a mom can be used to support the fact that she is clean. Would you put that garbage in your system knowing you would pass it directly on to your kid? Not many women would that I know. Well, I have been told I'm not so good with reading comprehension, but I thought I read you questioning whether Geek might have something "against women in general?" No, I can't think of many women who would intentionally harm their child. But some people take crazy risks with their health and life (e.g., FloJo).

Clemens is pure. :rofl: You are on good form, George! I think he's admitted certain impurities too. (He is just not getting good legal advice. It was a mistake to bring his Texas lawyer to DC.) As for Dara, I haven't ripped her. Huh? I pretty much agree with Gull's analysis, and think she's probably an outlier and works incredibly hard. But that doesn't mean I have to get all starry eyed and gooey and pretend PEDs don't exist.

I love this thread, too! Particularly The Smiths, and i'll lump everyone else as Not Smiths by Birth or Marriage. Back to Dara....what does The GoodSmith by Marriage think? I would love to hear her thoughts...since she was on the 1984 (or more?) Team. And, correct me if I am wrong.....she is so dear because she was the Lane 8 (for real! Or maybe Lane 1?) smoker at Trials! She's my hero, too!

I have never ever said she is doping. I have said her achievements warrant great scrutiny, as with every single recent notable sports accomplishment. And, that has been the tenor of almost all the skeptics on this forum. That's opposed to those who put their heads in the sand and proclaim her to be their hero. What exactly makes her heroic anyway? She's an unwed mother who has spent $100K on a selfish quest, that doesn't make her heroic, focused and talented yes, but not a hero. Again, your choice of words sinks you. What exactly is "surprising?" If you are caught off-guard by her results, then you too are scratching your head. Oh yeah, it's cause she does a lot of stretching. When you continue to modify how you describe her it becomes extremely hard to follow. Is she an anomaly? Is she surprising? If she and her doctor sugar daddy are on the outs, it might be surprising to hear his comments. So many surprises to ponder. So you resort to saying we have our heads buried in the sand because we believe her? Nice tack away from the real point of this discussion....if I can't prove my point I'll resort to childish name calling...... It sounds like you have more of a morals issue with miss Torres when you spout garbage about her being an unwed mother and not a hero...or is just against women in general? Do you know the circumstances of her life? Passing judgement on someone else is not the way to make a point. And now the Olympics are a "selfish quest?" Or is there some jealousy behind that remark and the fact that you don't have the resources to do what she is doing? And yes it is a little surprising how well she has done, she is doing what nobody has ever done before.....anyone would be a fool not to recognize it as surprising....does that make me automatically think she is cheating? NO!!! Go back and give me some examples of my so called modifications on how I described her!!! I think I have been pretty straight forward on my defense of what she has accomplished. And yes.....for a lot of women and young girls and even a few of us old men... she comes off as being quite a hero....because despite allowing all the testing and putting up with the accusations she still continues to do well! I for one applaud her for this!!!:bow::applaud:

holy (insert noun, verb, whatever)!!!!! seems like some folk have an extremely jaded view of some other swimmer setting the bar. i swam a couple of workouts w the masters in coral springs a couple of years ago, ms. (unwed mother?....pretty f...ing judgemental mr geek) torres was swimming a couple of lanes over...preggers and all. a beautiful stroke to behold. the power of massage should not be underestimated. after just one week of daily massage, i was able to bench-press a volkswagon....photo documentation to follow. .....anyway, its not like she has done anything really amazing, its just 50's and 100's. (sorry, couldn't resist)