Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?

Let's not lose sight of one very important truth: When the going gets tough, the sprinters get out. sprinters do seem to get most of the glory. everyone lines the deck to watch the 50 free finals, but the place is a ghost town for the 1650 (i guess everyone is afraid they might be asked to be a counter) was i supposed to insert a smile-thingy.....bah!!!

I use Kiefer silicone training fins during kick sets, usually as part of warmup. I don't use them while vertical kicking or while swimming. I was once a pull buoy addict, but have since recovered. Building endurance allowed me to ditch the training aids. I wish I could sprint, but I can't.

Swimming low and/or swimming TI is not designed for speed swimming; it is designed to minimize drag and enjoy swimming with an effortless-looking stroke. It is more for pleasure. In fact what I meant Donna, was that ok... let me put all that into perspective. Goal : Lowering the 50meter U30seconds Actual time : 40sec Method : Learn to swim better using TI For more than a year (probably), the subject has to learn TI drills, increase slippery, lower stroke count. Learning to travel efficientely Under water while pushing off the walls and everything. But no one race like that of course. Not over 50m. What's the name of the game over 50m? Kick kick kick. What happens then? When you see a fast-moving sprinter with most of the back exposed, you'd naturally tend to believe you're seeing hydroplaning at work. What you are really seeing is a deeper bow wave being cut by that swimmer. And there is a massive energy cost to creating such a wave I've never seen a freestyle sprinter performing a sprint being low. Reason for this (in my humble opinion), is that so much downward force is being applied (huge kick, very high stroke rate) that is has a lifting effect. So it doesn't really matter how low or high the subject in my example is while performing TI drills and learnings, when he lights up the kick engine during a 50m sprint, the subject will end up on top of the water, not under. *** edit ** I think I understand what's going on in the debate... TI doesn't include sprinting specific drills I think. Not in the yellow book (which is outdated though). And maybe *not yet*. I don't know, only Terry could confirm. So you're right in saying that TI doesn't turn you into a sprinter. It will turn you into a swimmer though, which is already a hell of a start.

The fastest any human has ever swum is about 5mph, maintained for less than a minute. I've read that hydroplaning for a vessel such as a human body occurs at 33mph. Allen Stark messaged me that he's gotten his sunfish to hydroplane at 10mph, but consider the two key differences in that vessel vs the human vessel. His sunfish sits much higher in the water at rest and is always sleekly shaped. Not so the human body. And 10mph is still twice as fast as any human has ever swum. The maximum speed of a saiboat (a displacement vessel) is a function of it's length at the waterline, the so-called hull speed (which can be calculated). However, that speed can be exceeded when the vessel hydroplanes. Thus, a 37 foot sailboat with a hull speed of 7 knots can achieve speeds in excess of 10 knots when hydroplaning. Minimzing the "wetted surface" translates to faster movement through the water (which is why a sailboat that is heeling over loses speed).

The most phenominal swimmer I ever swam against was Laura Val. I was always 2nd to her in the backstroke; she owns it. She's 55 now and here are some of her times this past year: 100 LCM Free: 1:02.63 100 SCM Fly: 1:10.93 100 SCM Back: 1:14.80 She also frequently kicks 100 yd free sets under 1:30, and can hold 100 yd free sets under 1:00. She is an advocate of BIG paddles, resistance tubing, pull buoys, kickboards. She says she is a swim training junkie, so to speak; she thrives on the hard, power training, lots of yardage. She has never had a swimming injury.:bow: Donna Oh, c'mon Donna I can take her.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sure, I don't use BIG paddles, resistance tubing, pull buoys or kickboards. Big deal. I do lift some weights (granted many are 5 lb. handweights) and I scull a little because Solar told me to. Plus, I just got a finis shooter monofin for xmas!! Yippee! So I'm good. That 100 SCM fly is all my mine. I'll just swim the whole thing underwater. It's just a minor detail that I haven't ever swum it in SCM... I'm going to check her 50 times. You just provided her 100 times. Maybe I can keep up with there even though she's got 10 years on me. :rofl: I saw her at Worlds. She is a stud. She's also taller than me, of course. Just like that Lisa Dahl in my age group is taller. Everybody and there mother is taller except my baby sister the FlyQueen. Solar: I have heard many people remark that sprinters don't really need to "practice." So for my last meet in early Dec., I pretty much didn't because of a little injury issue. Just did a little TI stuff, lots of SDKs and a few 25s once in awhile and went running instead. Worked out just fine. So I guess, right now, I'm a "sprinty sprinter." I'm hoping to redeem myself a bit in 2007 and become a more studly well-rounded sprinter.

Sprinters need practice,but a sprint workout is different. Say you are doing a lactic acid tolerance set of 50s on the minute.A distance swimmer would laugh and say"I do 50s on the 45 and don't breath hard",but here is the difference,the sprinter does them at 100% effort. Distance swimmers try that some time,all out from the first stroke,not a "fast"50,not descending,but ALL out so by the 3rd one you burn all over and by the 5th you're muscles are jelly. Fortress I can't believe I forgot there is an outstanding short sprinter in my age group. George Schmidt is about my height and an amazing sprinter. He is about as fast as I am in the 50 *** and that fast or faster in the other strokes. Needless to say his 100 IM is unbelieveable.

Sprinters need practice,but a sprint workout is different. Say you are doing a lactic acid tolerance set of 50s on the minute.A distance swimmer would laugh and say"I do 50s on the 45 and don't breath hard",but here is the difference,the sprinter does them at 100% effort. Distance swimmers try that some time,all out from the first stroke,not a "fast"50,not descending,but ALL out so by the 3rd one you burn all over and by the 5th you're muscles are jelly. Fortress I can't believe I forgot there is an outstanding short sprinter in my age group. George Schmidt is about my height and an amazing sprinter. He is about as fast as I am in the 50 *** and that fast or faster in the other strokes. Needless to say his 100 IM is unbelieveable. You are correct, Allen, natch. The people who tell me that sprinters don't need to "practice" are all mid to long distance swimmers, so they don't understand us. Hey, maybe we can send George and Lisa to Canada to train with Solar and the path will be clearer for us here in the US. But we definitely need to practice. I need to practice turns more ... Solar: Happy Holidays.:smooch: Laura Val is a professional swimmer, I'm sure, just like Karlyn P-N. Allen and I actually have to get on with our professions a bit, so we can't train 24/7. My injury is better, but I've eased off a lot the last 6 weeks or so and been very busy with the kids' meets (which close down my pool) and the holidays. Beth McGee (Swimr4Life) has identical symptoms to me, and she was recently told to try ART therapy as well. When I try to gear back up, I'll see if it still is problematic. If so, I'll go in for my MRI and/or back to ART on a more regular basis. I think I need to do more scapular stabilizing exercises as well. Not currently icing! (Doing sculling along with some drills during warm up.) Of course, you're right, no one can get to an elite level without practice. But, at least as masters, they might get there despite being short. Look what Allen did at Worlds. :applaud:

The most phenominal swimmer I ever swam against was Laura Val. I was always 2nd to her in the backstroke; she owns it. She's 55 now and here are some of her times this past year: 100 LCM Free: 1:02.63 100 SCM Fly: 1:10.93 100 SCM Back: 1:14.80 She also frequently kicks 100 yd free sets under 1:30, and can hold 100 yd free sets under 1:00. She is an advocate of BIG paddles, resistance tubing, pull buoys, kickboards. She says she is a swim training junkie, so to speak; she thrives on the hard, power training, lots of yardage. She has never had a swimming injury.:bow: Donna

Laura Val is a professional swimmer, I'm sure, just like Karlyn P-N. Allen and I actually have to get on with our professions a bit, so we can't train 24/7. Donna: The name of company in the Silicon Valley is the Automated Power Exchange. You are correct that she was a registered nurse in the intensive care unit for 21 years at Sequoia Hospital in Redwood City, CA. www.usms.org/.../

Laura Val is a professional swimmer, I'm sure, Geez. What's the matter with you guys? Get coal in your stocking? Can't you take a joke? :thhbbb: I was just joshing, saying that she's so amazing she seems "professional." :thhbbb: I'm clearly in the wrong profession, though. Should have gone to work at a hospital.