Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?
Former Member
This topic may have been discussed in the past but a search gave too many hits. I am very interested by your comment and advices for the following real scenario. This is for kids but may be this could apply to masters. BTW, I am just a parent swimmer, very interested in swimming in general but unfortunately not a good enough swimmer.
Two age group swimmers (11-12 years old) coming from different swimming history have opposite swimming style:
Swimmer 1 (let's call the higher stroke rate swimmer) swims 50 meters freestyle, taking 60 strokes. Swimmer2 does it in 45 strokes, with a time 0.5 to 1 second slower.
In general, Swimmer1 beats Swimmer2 in all distances (freestyle and back). Including a 2000 meter freestyle test set, faster by about 20 seconds. In this particular 2000m, aside the time and stroke rate, Swimmer2 (slower stroke rate) did it with even splits while Swimmer1 positive splits toward the last 25% of the distance.
Q1. Assuming two swimmers have similar aerobic conditions, which one will have better margin of progression? More exactly, would it be "easier" for Swimmer1 to improve the technique or for Swimmer2 to improve the Stroke Rate?
Q2. What would you recommend to these swimmers to get better?
To these two swimmers, stroke rate seems to be the winning bet. Swimmer2 was taught with a focus on excellent technique (and indeed looks better in the water), but is confused as this skill doesn't translate into better performance.
Of course, we are talking about SL and SR relative to a context where the swimmers already know about swimming.
Thanks you in advance for your help.
In the very few meets I've been in, I prefer to do the 50 free--not because I'm fast but for precisely the opposite reason. Get into a longer swim, and I'll end up being the one lonely soul still in the pool long after the others have finished. In the 50 free, there is far less chance of that happening, and often I even finish the same day I start. ;)
BUT, I do enjoy open water swims, where (sometimes) I'm the only swimmer left, long after others have finished. Somehow though with a large body of water around me, it feels less noticable. ;)
The most phenominal swimmer I ever swam against was Laura Val. I was always 2nd to her in the backstroke; she owns it.
She's 55 now and here are some of her times this past year:
100 LCM Free: 1:02.63
100 SCM Fly: 1:10.93
100 SCM Back: 1:14.80
She also frequently kicks 100 yd free sets under 1:30, and can hold 100 yd free sets under 1:00. She is an advocate of BIG paddles, resistance tubing, pull buoys, kickboards. She says she is a swim training junkie, so to speak; she thrives on the hard, power training, lots of yardage. She has never had a swimming injury.:bow:
Donna Bloody fast. :applaud: Do you know what she does as a living?
Big Paddles, resistance tubing, pull buoys and kickboards... her copy of TI swim book is certainly more recent than mine.
(btw, I posted the results of this sprinter guy to show that there has been at least one guy capable of lowering the 50m near 23s, but that has never lower the 200m under 2min.)
... and I scull a little because Solar told me to. BTW, how does it go? And in what type of set do you implement these?
I have heard many people remark that sprinters don't really need to "practice." I've seen some sprinters that didn't need to get wet all that much. But none of them made it to the real big league though. From what I can remember, none of them really did well on the international league. So really... I donno.
How's your injury going?
And Oh(!)... Happy Holidays !
Solar,
Laura used to be a a nurse in Intensive Care at Sequoia Hospital; she used to swim for Los Altos Masters, now swims for Tamalpais in CA I believe. She now is a Human Resources Executive in Silicon Valley. She has always said her motivation is the workout, not the swim meet. And, her two college-age children are non-swimmers, something she said she is grateful for. She also claims that one reason she may have never been injured is, in part, because she was a nurse and around doctors, and whenever she felt something strange going on physically, she took time off of swimming.
Way out of my league, here, especially in backstroke, but maybe The Fortress, with her new fin can destroy her previous records:rofl:
Donna
My next book, "Less is More: Endurance Swimming for Every Body" is under way, but I'll probably do a book on fast swimming later in 2007.
Terry:
This is great news. If you address swimming fast for sprint and endurance folks, maybe you'll conquer the world.
Do you have to call it "Less is More" though? That sounds like it's for the newbies. It also kinda sounds like "effortless," a word almost no one seems to like. What about "Efficiency is More?" I do understand that "Less is More" is a catchier marketing phrase. But how is "endurance" work "less" effort? I guess it's less effort if you do if "efficiently." But endurance work is hard work. Oh well, make sure you tell folks how to increase their SRs if they're sprinting. :)
Fish:
Very funny! I think everyone and their mother swims the 50 free. It's always got the most heats in every meet I've attended. I swim it quite a bit too, but, because it's so popular, I almost prefer to do something else on principle.
Frank,
I don't know what a professional swimmer is, but the one thing I know is I ain't one of them!!! I am but just a speck in the swimming world now, swimming distance with my fins and occasionally with a pull buoy, but I do use StretchCordz because I have no weights here.:rofl:
And, there are no credible doctors here so I have to for sure be careful about any further swim injuries because I don't TI, even though I have a long SL and have for years.
Donna
What a hoot!! When the tough gets going, the sprinters get out!!! Good one, and then we have Fortress' one about wetsuits and us distance junkies.
To be perfectly honest, I was a sprinter "once." It just hurts too much nowadays to move that fast quite honestly.
Back to it: I believe the reason why the 50 free is glorified is for one reason:
people's need for speed and normally that 50 could be anyone's game, who gets there the fastest (touch-outs), so this makes it exciting to watch. I love watching everything, and even though I am a distance person now, watching a 1650 can put me to sleep, so that's why I used to always be a counter.
Donna
Good one, Innerfish,
"In the 50 free, there is far less chance of that happening, and often I even finish the same day I start. (LOL).
Christmas is slow here, no tree, house is 91 degrees, no presents, Roatan is limited in that respect. Sure seems weird that it is Christmas!!
But you have a happy one!!
Donna
Let's not lose sight of one very important truth:
When the going gets tough, the sprinters get out. How much of a "sprinter" was the "sprintest" of all sprinters you've met?
Mine would have to be a gentleman called Eric.
50m free LCM = 23.49
100m free LCM = 54.13
200m free LCM = 2.05.16
400m free LCM = (Are you kidding? Out for a Nap...)
This guy didn't visit the pool much. I think he spent most of his training time weight lifting and doing plio for starts and turns. In the pool : sculling, sculling, scullings.
If one wants to get a book read, it's important to choose a title that will get attention. And I think the title should sum up one's philosophy as well. In this case it seems particuarly appropriate because the conventional approach to endurance training is "More is More."
And what's wrong with writing for newbies? Indeed I expressly hope the accessible approach that I'll recommend will encourage many "newbies" to set swimming goals -- first mile, first OW race, first English Channel crossing or Manhattan circuit -- they might previously have been too intimidated to contemplate. At the same time, I hope it will inspire others to believe they can set the kind of goals I never contemplated when I was younger - breaking a national LD record or winning a World Masters OW championship.
I also hope it might result in there being more swimmers entering the 1500 and 1650 at Nationals and every LD OW event than there are medals available in every age group through 85-89 and indeed eventually 90+. When I race for a national championship in 20 or 30 years I hope to have LOTS of company to com petere with me, just as is the case in the 50 Free.
If I were to call it "More is More," I'd turn off the vast majority of those hoped-for readers.
Here's are several quotes I've collected from the TI Discussion Forum to include in the book's introduction to clarify what we mean by "Less is More."
"Less is more: it's not how far you go that matters, but how you go: the quality of what you're doing to yourself, and what you learn while doing it."
Julie Friedeberg
London England
Yoga Teacher
TI Student
"Swimming the TI way reminds me of the quest for mastery or virtuosity in the martial, fine or performing arts.
That is: having fine-tuned control of your swimming instrument in any situation, at any speed, for any purpose, it moves beyond getting fitter or faster, it's being able to apply your swimming intention at every speed and distance and SPL and in any condition. This is more worthy of pursuit than any single record or milestone.
Like the painter who can achieve a mark on the canvas with his thumb dipped in paint or the woodworker with a router on a wood board, we want to be able to swim the way we intend to swim."
Peter Scott
Vancouver BC
TI Coach in Training
No, it's great to get the newbies. Your goals are well put. I was just selfishly thinking of some of us too. Judging from where I live, I think in 20-30 years there will be lots more people to com petere with you in the OW. To me, it seems more people are interested in the Bay Bridge OW Swim than the 50 free. That event is difficult to enter it fills up so fast.
Yes, you must have a catchy title. I didn't say "More is More" though. I wouldn't buy that book. I think I said "Efficiency Is More." I might have to go look at your forum if you've got artists and woodworkers and people who can write like Cruise.
but does it have value in and of itself? For me it does because it is my triceps, not wrist/forearm doing the work.
Donna,
When I am doing my next workout I am going to try to be more aware of using the triceps in this portion of the stroke as opposed to "flailing" with my hand/forearm. I suspect I have lost efficiency in this portion of the stroke due to an ending stroke flaw. Thanks.:applaud: Larry.
