Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?

I am a relative newcomer to this sport, but I am pretty well aquainted with body mechanics. I have found that more hip rotation with less shoulder rotation(I believe it's all relative to the individuals body habitus) in combination w/a faster "SR" to facilitate almost a hydroplane effect with my sprinting workout. I am working with a deeper angle of attack( more verticle) on the catch and subsequent pull seem to facilitate a more efficient stroke(and faster times) for me. I have recently been questioning whether the portion of the stroke after the hip that is mostly wrist/forearm generated is perhaps less than efficient and maybe an earlier recovery may add distance with no extra energy expenditure. Any input?

Larry, For a newcomer to swimming, my hat is off to you. You and I are thinking along the same lines because swimming higher with hip rotation and not shoulder roll do provide more speed for a swimmer and the times in history so state this. And using EVF (vertical arm on catch), just completes the picture. Now, having said that, many people choose to swim many different ways because for them it feels "right." And for swimming to feel "right", it has to be recognized as a good, solid swimming theory. Many are still debating over whether swimming low in the water is best; I suppose time will tell. The other issue is whether swimming with a slight hydroplane causes more shoulder injuries; and the jury is still out on that one. The debate over this is still ongoing with many people believing both methods are best. I, too, have thought about whether the portion of the stroke after the hip is of benefit or not. It does prevent that higher stroke rate, but does it have value in and of itself? For me it does because it is my triceps, not wrist/forearm doing the work. And I have shortened up my stroke to gain a higher strokerate and my swimming times just don't improve that much by stopping the stroke at the waist/high hip; I have to completely finish the stroke. I hope that others here will jump in and discuss what works for them; the more ideas the better for many experiences are useful in the decision-making about these things. Donna

I want to thank you, Terry, for your analogies. I truly "get" what you are trying to say. But, and you know me, there is usually a "but" in there somewhere as I continue to search for answers to the ongoing debate about how to swim well and the most correct methods for achieving both speed and correctness of stroke. We all know icebergs only float and the oceans take them where currents roam. I guess if they had propulsion other than a piece falling off causing them to move a little faster, I would better understand the 90% factor. The fish factor you used to describe minimizing drag is probably most true, but fish only swim underwater, not on the water. Sure, their design is very aerodynamic and ours isn't, so they would be faster because they are both underwater and very tapered so drag is probably not a factor. I guess I have a question and that is why does swimming low in the water (TI) minimize drag? versus swimming higher in the water? If a swimmer swims low, the water rolls over the head onto the shoulders, so far-so good, but when they turn to breathe, the shoulder has to roll which causes turbulence. If a swimmer uses hip rotation and not shoulder roll, the rotation to turn to breathe is 50% less because the swimmer is on their side (aerodynamics here) but their shoulder stays in place out front. Because of this, how can a TI swimmer increase their stroke rate with shoulder roll and underwater turbulence? Excessive shoulder roll causes people to sway back and forth; I've seen it and it is not something that would aid them in swimming faster. I know part of this may be for another thread, but it does have great impact on Stroke Rate vs. Stroke Length and so many people are trying to figure out which is best to use, a combination somehow of them, and how to accomplish a higher SR or great SL. I'll take swimming high on the water any day of the week because it will at least allow for a higher stroke rate if I want to implement it. To me, there would be way too much drag swimming low the way you describe because there would be too much underwater turbulence from shoulder roll for me to have a faster recovery. Donna

I guess I have a question and that is why does swimming low in the water (TI) minimize drag? versus swimming higher in the water? No one has ever tried to be fast at free style swimming low. TI included. In sprint situation I mean. *** stroke, and to some extent, butterfly... another story.

Solar, Thank you for a short and precise answer to my question when you wrote: "No one has ever tried to be fast at free style swimming low. TI included. In sprint situation I mean. *** stroke, and to some extent, butterfly... another story." All of this time I had been wondering about swimming low with speed and just found it not very possible, but no one told me what you just wrote. Now I get it, finally. Swimming low and/or swimming TI is not designed for speed swimming; it is designed to minimize drag and enjoy swimming with an effortless-looking stroke. It is more for pleasure. Whew, I was starting to get tired hammering this over and over :frustrated:. Donna

Correct. The drills we teach are intended to: 1) Undo bad habits that have made the whole-stroke resistant to change. Drills are a way of "fooling" the nervous system into thinking a new activity is being practiced. 2) Allow examination and experimentation of specific facets of the stroke. 3) Increase self-awareness and understanding of how one's body behaves in the water. Sprinting is a high-rate, high-power, high-demand use of the whole-skill you've been refining at lower speeds, thereby demanding high level coordination. Maybe this is partially why TI sparks debate. Maybe for sprinters it's better to do the drills in the first paragraph above and then do some sprint specific training to perform the activity described in the second paragraph. That's sort of what I do. Maybe your next book should be "Teaching Fast Swimming the TI Way." I'd buy that book. Then you'd be turning out swimmers and sprinter-swimmers.

Let's not lose sight of one very important truth: When the going gets tough, the sprinters get out. Ha, ha, el doctoro. Let's not lose sight of one other very important truth: When the sprinters get tough, the distance swimmers buy wet suits. I thought you were perhaps an advocate of tougher TI-type endurance workouts though. What I said above could be extended to you middle distance freestylers. Maybe Terry's next book should be titled: "Swimming Fast the TI Way: Sprint and Endurance Workouts." And, I'm curious, Gull, are you using fins or not?

sprinters do seem to get most of the glory. everyone lines the deck to watch the 50 free finals, but the place is a ghost town for the 1650 (i guess everyone is afraid they might be asked to be a counter) was i supposed to insert a smile-thingy.....bah!!! I think they get more glory with the viewing public during the Olympics, but not necessarily USMS swimmers. I find a lot of USMS swimmers like the longer events and admire toughness. Like that Gull guy above. And I always count for my distance friends when attending meets. I admire them. No smilie thing necessary, Dave. Hey, I like that new avatar.

Okay. I give up. I wave the white flag. Though some must be weary of me doing so I'll point out one more time what transpired with the West Point sprint group when they changed their focus from raw power, sheer effort and "muscle isolation" to efficient harmonized movement and training to turn counterintuitive actions into automatic responses. But there's no downside to having that be a pleasurable experience as well. You won't give up. Don't be ridiculous. That would be no fun. Crusaders don't give up! Not if they want to change the world. Nope, no downside to a pleasant experience whatsoever. I'm going to go try and have one later today. I think I'll just do my TI drills, kick without a board and do some restorative swimming though. :banana: I'll sprint after the holidays. :banana:

Let's not lose sight of one very important truth: When the going gets tough, the sprinters get out.