Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?
Former Member
This topic may have been discussed in the past but a search gave too many hits. I am very interested by your comment and advices for the following real scenario. This is for kids but may be this could apply to masters. BTW, I am just a parent swimmer, very interested in swimming in general but unfortunately not a good enough swimmer.
Two age group swimmers (11-12 years old) coming from different swimming history have opposite swimming style:
Swimmer 1 (let's call the higher stroke rate swimmer) swims 50 meters freestyle, taking 60 strokes. Swimmer2 does it in 45 strokes, with a time 0.5 to 1 second slower.
In general, Swimmer1 beats Swimmer2 in all distances (freestyle and back). Including a 2000 meter freestyle test set, faster by about 20 seconds. In this particular 2000m, aside the time and stroke rate, Swimmer2 (slower stroke rate) did it with even splits while Swimmer1 positive splits toward the last 25% of the distance.
Q1. Assuming two swimmers have similar aerobic conditions, which one will have better margin of progression? More exactly, would it be "easier" for Swimmer1 to improve the technique or for Swimmer2 to improve the Stroke Rate?
Q2. What would you recommend to these swimmers to get better?
To these two swimmers, stroke rate seems to be the winning bet. Swimmer2 was taught with a focus on excellent technique (and indeed looks better in the water), but is confused as this skill doesn't translate into better performance.
Of course, we are talking about SL and SR relative to a context where the swimmers already know about swimming.
Thanks you in advance for your help.
I don't think I have ever found anything other than moving in water than gives me so much pleasure. It's wonderful to find this out, yes?
I can think of a few other things!! But swimming does give me a great deal of pleasure. It is so relaxing to lose yourself in the water.
Allen,
"The theory is that the end push of free(from the hips back) is relatively inefficient."
I had not heard this, but I am sure it is out there. I wonder why the people doing studies on this think the end push of free can be inefficient. Does it have something to do with: for as little benefit that a swimmer may receive from this end push, it would be better for them to stop short and start the next pull instead? This is the only thing I can think of, but I haven't a clue on this one.
But I can see where people may think that hip rotation does provide more power and it will streamline a swimmer. I think that both of these things happen. I know I can feel the power generated and because I rotate, I get a much larger catch of water, thus lowering my stroke per length.
I've never been a freestyle sprinter; only backstroke, and I can't remember my SPL, but it was higher than my free. The only thing I have experienced is when sprinting a 50 free, my entire stroke has to be shortened up all the way through it, and I don't much like that feeling of high-turnover and going nowhere fast; not thrashing, just an inefficient sprint freestyle stroke to me. I just have never been a freestyle sprinter and I'm not starting now.
And it would be good to see Terry's remarks on this as he has been swimming forever and has been associated with good coaches and swimmers. I am sure he may be able to give us something to think about.
And, when will George be back? I believe he thinks shoulder rolling is a good thing, I think I saw him write that once.
Donna
A better question is how low should a SPL be? For me it is always between 11 and 13 each 25 meters. Always. And I am traveling mighty quickly with what seems to be an effortless stroke to people watching it. Lots is going on underwater and my stroke is always finished completely. But I still pay a price for this so-called "effortless stroke."
That's a mighty nice stroke rate for a 25 meter pool. What is going on underwater to achieve this? EVF? Are you finishing past your hips and not early-exiting? I want a video!!! I now you're very techno-savvy, so you can do it. :agree:
I still don't like that word "effortless." I think I read that even Lindsay doesn't like that word. ;)
It depends why your turnover is fast or why your SPL is low. If your turnover is fast because your thrashing then you need to work on "grabbing" the water. If your SPL is low because you are gliding then you need to work on that. I have read and heard that some coaches are teaching a higher turnover for distance swimmers. The theory is that the end push of free(from the hips back) is relatively inefficient. A sprinter has more energy per stroke to use and so can afford to get as much out of each stroke as possible,where as a distance swimmer should only use the most efficient part of the stroke.
"effortless stroke."
Also, density of water may come into play even though I believe you are speaking of freshwater or chlorine. Open water swimming is a whole new ballgame. SPL is important until an OW swimmer hits current and tide. Then, higher SR and solid kick changes the ballgame entirely as a person must tack and sprint to get across that current's mile or two mile path and back into smoother, non-moving water. And sprinting for me means a less SPL and a higher SR. Thus, in OW, SPL works well UNTIL, and then a swimmer must change gears into high SR and increased kick.
I notice that someone finally had the good sense and logic to discuss OW. Personally, in the off season I do a lot of SPL stuff in the pool. Then, as it closer to fun time, I shift to some SR stuff. Because, as Islandsox said, you have to be able to do both SPL and SR in the open water, which is a mercurial, dangerous and challenging medium.
I have on occasion used a true "effortless" stroke, when I am doing a really long open water swim.
Then are you focusing on SPL or SR when you swim OW?
Thanks, oh Great Caped One,
But I think for most folks, they are swimming in pools primarily and are trying to figure out which is more important and/or more easily performed in pool swims or lake swims. And which one best serves them individually.
In my years of observation, anything past the 400 free, SPL seems to be crucial until people like Kate Ziegler come along for it appears she has about a SPL of 16, but borders on sprinting. Maybe for some up and coming swimmers, it will be a less SPL with the capability of sprinting. So, does that mean some may have developed twitch muscles capable of going either way?
If so, that is a remarkable feat, one I cannot do. Especially now that I am an so much older and my body does not do what I want it to. Thus, saltwater distance which challenges other systems in my swimming.
My long ocean swim will be a challenge that I probably cannot even dream of, but I think the training for it may, possibly, be more difficult in the long run.
Both SPL and high SR are crucial to swimming better and swimming faster. That's my :2cents: worth based only on my experience. We must find our own place in this.
I don't think I have ever found anything other than moving in water than gives me so much pleasure. It's wonderful to find this out, yes?
Donna
I don't think I have ever found anything other than moving in water than gives me so much pleasure. It's wonderful to find this out, yes?Donna
No. I must respectfully disagree. I like to run swiftly on the land for great distances. That gives me a real high. But it does not have that same effect on my hamstring or knees. I am not overly fond of that word "pleasure." Let's swim with real effort and gusto and :drink: instead.
