Stroke Rate vs Stroke Length, which is more difficult?

We have a guy on my team who can flail his way home in any race and manage to score an awesome time. We're talking 20-25+ strokes for a 25 yard free. The guy routinely goes :49s and :50s for his 100 w/ little or no practice. I think a lot of the SR/SL debate is what happens underwater. If you flail, but aren't grabbing any water, your super high SR is useless. That guy can grab water like nobody's business. Personally, I am all about the SL piece... a coach once told me that longer boats go further, so i started stretching out like a crewboat. Needless to say, my 100 sprint looks like a walk in the park, but still can bust out :50 high/:51 shaved & tapered, and 13-15 strokes per length :banana:

Let's take two 11-12 swimmers. One is tall and lightly-muscled. The other is shorter and more muscled. There is a difference in both the length of their lever and the torque they can put on it. In 4 years the situation may be reversed. You can't have one (SL vs SR) without the other and still be successful. A good coach will be able to tell the kid what they need to work on and will develop them with good technique as they are starting to develop their aerobic capacity. You can worry about how to get the kids to practice, pay their training fees, feed them nutritious meals, and make sure that the club has volunteer/financial support to thrive and hire good coaches. :)

I hope I am a responsible parent as you suggested. The coach pretty much advices what seems obvious: Swimmer1 should improve Stroke length and Swimmer2 should improve Stroke rate. He'll work with the kids the way he wants, I prefer not to interfer with the coach business. I'd like to know from your experience what is the reality of SR / SL. How they evolve as the swimmer gets more experienced. Something like (those are just imaginary assumptions) "once you are used to high SR or high SL, you stick with it" or "it's normal to start with high SR with low SL and reverse it in time", etc. At one time in your swimming career, you have probably done some breakthrough. This could have been technique, weight training, aerobic conditioning, kicks, etc. If it had something to do with regards to SR or SL what was it?

You can't have one (SL vs SR) without the other and still be successful. :) I think NKFrench is right. In general, most successful sprinters have a very high stroke rate, but you really need both in an ideal world. So sprinters with a high SR may want to focus on SPL to get even more bang for their buck. But typically, just swimming in a polite and peaceful manner will not get you too far in a sprint race and there is generally a lot of water churning. Conversely, one typically thinks of distance swimmers as having a low SPL and a low SR with long gliding strokes. But I've seen many distance freestylers with high SR and fairly straight arm recoveries like Kate Zeigler succeed too. (In fact, her coach seems to teach a high SR for his distance group.) So, in sum, it depends on the individual swimmer. Someone thrashing around should maintain their high stroke rate (or slow down just a bit) while simultaneously devleoping better SPL and vice versa. The coach should know or at least have his own theory of what produces the most speed. I just don't see how you get good speed without a reasonably high SR though. Plus, size does play a role in these two factors. Us smaller folks have high SRs.

Although it is a very technical subject, it is an interesting issue. I used to swim with a hi SR and less SL. Now I apply front-quadrant freestyle and my SR decreased and SL increased. Overall, my speed is nearly the same, but I enjoy my swimming much more than before (but the gold medal goes someone else with hi SR). When I watched Inge de Bruin or Terese Alshammer (sprinters in free and butterfly), their SR is very hi, nearly no hip rotation, no vertical forearm (they are world class swimmers). On the other hand, when I watch another sprinter Alexander Popov, I can not believe the long SL he has in that incredible speed in addition to vertical forearm and hip rotation). I do not think that there is an easy answer for that question. I wish they would change the swimming contest rules. They shall give the medals according to the Swimming Golf Score. Being fast is not everything (but surely something).:D

As we are all pondering the answer to the proverbial question: SPL or SR, I want to add one thing. Is this a short distance that is being analyzed, or a longer event? Or is the question simple: the distance matters not, just the same two swimmers with different stroking capability to cover that distance. If you push aside a swimmer's anatomy and only look at the complex question of SPL or SR, my first thought is SPL if, IF, that swimmer not only grabs that water and has the ability to keep it and not lose it for said distance. Not only will that swimmer possibly pull away from the swimmer with high SR, but the swimmer with SPL will not use as much energy nor oxygen along the swim. Conservation of energy can be seen when a swimmer overtakes another swimmer in a race who may have been slightly behind. A better question is how low should a SPL be? For me it is always between 11 and 13 each 25 meters. Always. And I am traveling mighty quickly with what seems to be an effortless stroke to people watching it. Lots is going on underwater and my stroke is always finished completely. But I still pay a price for this so-called "effortless stroke." Also, density of water may come into play even though I believe you are speaking of freshwater or chlorine. Open water swimming is a whole new ballgame. SPL is important until an OW swimmer hits current and tide. Then, higher SR and solid kick changes the ballgame entirely as a person must tack and sprint to get across that current's mile or two mile path and back into smoother, non-moving water. And sprinting for me means a less SPL and a higher SR. Thus, in OW, SPL works well UNTIL, and then a swimmer must change gears into high SR and increased kick. Just my :2cents: worth. Donna

First I'm a breaststroker so everything I say about free is hearsay(or what I read.) Generally the roll is spoken of as being initiated by the hips. You definitely want to rotate along your long axis to prevent snaking. Some say starting the rotation from the hips adds power to the stroke,others say it just improves streamling by letting you reach further on the catch and by preventing snaking. Generally sprinters have less body roll as there is just less time to roll between strokes. Fortress,since you swim back and fly so well just use free for warm-up cool down. (That and being 1/4 of the IM are it's main uses anyway IMHO. Now if I could just figure out a way to swim IM without backstroke I'd be fine. Fortress you're short and I'm short. Maybe in fullbody suits we'd look enough alike we could team up to swim an IM:rofl: )

YES! The voice of logic and reason enters the discussion! :applaud: Uh, I don't exactly think we were being illogical and unreasonable before, but I agree Allen's advice is always sound.

From what I can figure out,the last part of the pull(at that point really a push) is done mostly with the arm muscles and not the big chest and back muscles(pecs and lats etc.) Probably some of the idea of "front quadrant" swimming fits in there too. I have seen some elite distance swimmers with a shortened pull(hand exiting at the hips) but I don't remember an elite sprinter swimming this way.

. Now if I could just figure out a way to swim IM without backstroke I'd be fine. Fortress you're short and I'm short. Maybe in fullbody suits we'd look enough alike we could team up to swim an IM:rofl: ) Now that's the kind of logic I like. :rofl: With caps on, we'd be twins. I seem to recall that you're on the small weight side too. Me too. Plus, I don't have that anatomical issue someone referred to as precluding backstroke. So we're set! Meet ya in Oregon. Wait, what age group do we register our new WR in? P.S. In free, I think I'm doing what Donna does when I'm just warming up or swimming sets. But when I'm sprinting that 50 free I'm definitely doing less rolling. I do not believe I am "thrashing" about too unduly, however, I just have a high stroke rate. I believe I have witnesses.