I am interested in knowing what swimming theory you use and why you use it. I hear much about Total Immersion and not just from this forum. I hear much about swimming high on the water slightly looking forward, and I hear much about people developing their own swimming theory best suited for them but using guidelines that help them maintain a technical stroke.
Given all these different theories, it is no wonder that swimmers new to the sport are confused as to whom to listen to.
I borrowed the TI book from a friend a year or so ago, and found several things I agreed with, but more that I didn’t. I am not close-minded, I just cannot find a reason to swim so low in the water with the head looking down. The rolling of the shoulders really concerned me and the fact that so much of the body is low-parallel to the water, this has to increase drag, especially on the shoulders. One thing I will say is most people who swim using TI have beautiful strokes. But, and there is a but, they just don’t swim fast. Maybe I have just been so isolated here on this island that I have not heard of any, but are there any Olympians using TI? Or, will the young-uns using it be our next generation?
There is a USMS club in Fort Worth who advocated TI. Sadly, now they are deconstructing all those methods because no matter what the workout and intensity, their swimmers’ speeds could never develop. I get to speak to many triathlete swimmers here every March. The Elite (professional) swimmers swim high on top of the water looking forward and they use hip rotation, not shoulder rolling. Many of the age-groupers in this event just don’t understand why they are not swimming faster using TI. Now, we all know that most of the triathletes who were swimmers first, and runners and bikers second, always fare better in the swim portion.
I have said this before and I will say it again, there is more than one way to swim. I swim higher on top of the water looking forward, about a yard or two and use hip rotation. The reason for this is picture a person throwing a rock that skims the lake. The rock is flying on top of the water and not in it, so it moves much faster until its momentum ceases. Now, I know people are not rocks, but the principle is founded. Swimming on top of the water generates power and the swimmer can truly feel it. I swim slightly “planed” outward and upward and skim over the water, not in it.
Nowadays, because I am older and carry more weight, I swim not quite as high on the water and this has evolved over the last ten years or so. So even though I started out swimming “high” on the water looking forward, my stroke has become my own personal one that suits me very well. I also want to mention that I am referring to only freestyle here even though with all of my backstroke days, I, again, swam rather “planed” upward because I could get more rotation on top of the water rather than “in” the water.
I am not trying to cause a brou-ha-ha. I am just curious about the swimming theories and why people select them. And after swimming with any specific theory, are you happy with it?
Donna
Former Member
I am cracking up after watching that. Boy, I will swim that 18 miles to Utila in an hour or two if I had that capability :rofl::rofl:
Donna
My inclination in answering criticisms directed at what we teach is to respond objectively and factually. You could look it up, as they say.
I looked it up. Is this an "objective and factual" description of the prevailing "swimming culture" of which many of us are a small part:
"mass delusion and sickness."
Terry,
Both comments were very germane to the topic. The topic was Swimming Theories and in a discussion of this kind, many elements of swimming and its people need to be included to identify any and all correctness of a theory, the drills being done, the drills not being done, and the people teaching it.
I am happy that you encounter TI swimmers without knowing they are such, but it is obvious they know who you are: you are their leader, you are famous to them. In no way whatsoever would they ever cross you or challenge you.
The group of women who made the comments that TI's main teaching point was stroke development and little work on conditioning, got my attention. Their rudeness toward another person who, to them, did not look athletic, just emphasized the arrogance with which they had been taught. At least they found out they didn't do too well and, hopefully, they will put in the work necessary and perform better and create better sportsmanship in the future. I am disappointed that even today, adults needs to be taught sportsmanship. A coach can certainly help with this, a coach needs to be aware of this. No one likes a know-it-all; it leads to bad club harmony.
Now, with that said, this group of women, and I sat with them for several hours at a large table at the Mayan Princess in West Bay, had no clue that anything beyond stroke development was important. So, either they totally misunderstood their coach or heard what they wanted to hear, or the coach misinformed them. I have no way of knowing for sure what they understood or didn't. They only said conditioning was not necessary for TI.
I included the comments about these things because it seemed so faulty to me and negligent on the part of anyone who calls themself a coach. You and I know there is no such thing as a quick fix for anything. At least I hope you know this.
There are always people who either misunderstand instruction or make it up as they go along. I have no way of knowing for sure about the people I had the misfortune of sitting with. But maybe, just maybe, it is time to really have a talk with your coaches. They may not even be aware they are coming across differently than what you envision.
I have said about all I can on this.
Donna
No, Terry, "they did not know they'd be measured by whether I beat them" because I was not measuring them, they were measuring me before the race because they were rather rude in their comments about my age (placed on my leg, of course), and what I physically look like. I only swim against myself, not other people. I have never criticized another swimmer in any situation nor would I because I don't believe in it. I believe in constructive discussion and advice when needed.
I am very quiet about giving verbal advice about swimming because there are too many out there who claim to be experts, and I have seen what they have done. I in no way am criticizing any swimmer and/or their time for the mile or any distance. My point is: a 32 minute to 40 minute mile is just not very fast and swimmers in triathlons comlain about how hard it is to go under 30 minutes. If a person is just happy to complete it, then time is of little importance. Just as completing my 18 mile swim will be important, not necessarily the time.
To comment on time, these TI gals knew they would swim under 30 minutes and were very disappointed that day. Maybe they are just very impatient with their speed taking so long to come about, but hopefully they will be back this March and will have improved their times.
We all know how exciting it is to better our times: it is the personal accomplishment that continues to drive many to better themselves and we all know how thrilling it is to achieve speed goals. And if the TI method is helping millions of swimmers, then my hat is off to this "theory." The bottom line is to get people swimming, remove their fear of drowning, and perfect a stroke that they can be happy with for years. And if they can compete along the way, it will open up new avenues of personal friendships and accomplishments thus enriching their lives.
And I do consider TI a swimming theory even if you don't. And I think this because it is an acronym for what so many people refer to: Total Immersion. And it is obviously designed more for style than speed at this point in time. But I am sure that as time goes by, we may start seeing faster swim times for those TI swimmers lucky enough to have found it.
I believe in my swimming theory or style as much as you do yours, and this is why we are both still swimming today. We found a way to enjoy the water, challenge ourselves, better our times, and help others. I don't think life can get any better than this.
And I really do appreciate your point of view even though I am not in total agreement with it. We can respect one another but agree to disagree.
Donna
:groovy:
honestly, i felt elated. i had trouble sleeping that night i was so jazzed.
physically, after a couple of hundred recovery yards i felt great!
I know the feeling. My point was that this is a fairly intense and demanding set, not what many of us would associate with TI. So perhaps we have misunderstood what a TI practice really entails. I have found that I fare better on a set like that when I really focus on technique (particularly toward the end) instead of just flailing away.
That's it, I'm giving up the practice of law. I'm just going to run and swim and kick and go to PTs and go to TI clinics and, because I'm doing the latter, do fly all the time with Beth. (Besides, we can wear fins together and get them caught in our duvet covers.) I know for a fact that she's an elite masters swimmer. I don't know who her coach is though. She's probably going to that SC Champs meet in Texas she's so darn fast ... even with that shoulder problem.
If you're not careful, Rich, I'll take you off my Christmas card list too. :rofl:
Thanks for the compliment Fortress. You are so kind! :smooch: I'm definitely not going to that meet in Texas. You have to be smokin' fast to swim in that meet! My training this past year has not exactly been consistent. Too many family things and illnesses going on! I'm swimming a meet this weekend and it's gonna be "do the best you can and don't worry about your times". We'll see! My coach is Kim Hurst and she is the most awesome coach I could ever ask for! I'm very blessed! Her theory is to give us lots of variety! We do sprint, middle distance, distance, aerobic and anaerobic workouts. She incorporates free, IM and stroke sets. She keeps it interesting and challenging. We use kickboards and sometimes fins for kicking sets and pull buoys for pulling sets (I only do if my shoulder is healthy!... and I NEVER use paddles!).I like her theory because I never get bored or in a rut.
My coach is Kim Hurst and she is the most awesome coach I could ever ask for! I'm very blessed! Her theory is to give us lots of variety! We do sprint, middle distance, distance, aerobic and anaerobic workouts. She incorporates free, IM and stroke sets. She keeps it interesting and challenging. We use kickboards and sometimes fins for kicking sets and pull buoys for pulling sets (I only do if my shoulder is healthy!... and I NEVER use paddles!).I like her theory because I never get bored or in a rut.
I hate to get bored at practice as well. It's that sprinter short attention span. This does not sound very TI though. She must be quite "conventional." You are actually using some swimming devices and doing kick sets .... How did you get to be so fast?! Or maybe that's why you did? :rofl: With so many swimming theories, who can tell? ;)
I hate to get bored at practice as well. It's that sprinter short attention span. This does not sound very TI though. She must be quite "conventional." You are actually using some swimming devices and doing kick sets .... How did you get to be so fast?! Or maybe that's why you did? :rofl: With so many swimming theories, who can tell? ;)
I think you need to do what works best for you ... the key is finding that and you probably need a coach that can give some individualized attention. My old coach was fabulous with this. Individualized sets, intervals, and drills. He understood that since I am shorter than most other swimmers I was going to take more strokes and have a wider recovery, blah, blah, blah ....
It's not unprecedented... In contrast to the stroke tuning and challenging SPL/speed puzzles we spent our time solving ... Plodding up and down for two hours holding a kickboard, while I and others get to experience the pleasure of using the whole body to flow through the water? Sure sounds like a sentence to me. If it's your idea of a fun time, go for it. Does one tire of the evident futility of answering the same criticisms on this forum over and over and have those responses ignored, forgotten, or misrepresented the next time the topic comes up? A bit.
That's it. I'm taking you off my Christmas card list. :thhbbb: You mischaracterized my post again and your reply is non-responsive. As you say, "it's not unprecedented" and can get very "tire." Re-read.
I did not "criticize" TI workouts. My post had nothing whatsoever to do with TI workouts. It had little to do with TI, except I did say I like to kick. In fact, I'd much rather do the workout you described in the last post than the college one you witnessed. I've said it before. I agree with much of TI and tend to train that way. I never use a kickboard, paddles, parachutes or even VASA machines -- a product I recall you no longer endorse. I do many of the drills you recommend. I do not "plod" unless I am suffering from "sickness." Why are you trying to offend someone who agrees with you about all this? I am not one of the people that you should find so "tiresomely" critical of TI. Man, I'm sounding like a TI groupie right now ... :eek: So we better, ever so briefly in one more paragraph so Geek doesn't get on my case for overtyping with my non-typing hand, get down to it...
I'm talking shoulders, Alpha Dude. Shoulders only. My post was solely and primarily and mostly about the causation of shoulder injuries. That is the one way we seem to part polite company. I know you are on a "crusade" about this epidemic. I understand that you want to protect your swimmers from this epidemic. I sincerely hope my kids' coaches do the same (although I'm worried for them about hyperflexibility). But shoulder injuries are NOT caused primarily or mostly by bad technique. I am standing on my posts in the other threads which do not contain the words "mass delusion" or "sickness" in them. Why don't don't you let someone else have the last word just one little time?:woot: :thhbbb: :frustrated:
P.S. I think you should use smilies in your posts to lighten things up. Mets suck.
