I am interested in knowing what swimming theory you use and why you use it. I hear much about Total Immersion and not just from this forum. I hear much about swimming high on the water slightly looking forward, and I hear much about people developing their own swimming theory best suited for them but using guidelines that help them maintain a technical stroke.
Given all these different theories, it is no wonder that swimmers new to the sport are confused as to whom to listen to.
I borrowed the TI book from a friend a year or so ago, and found several things I agreed with, but more that I didn’t. I am not close-minded, I just cannot find a reason to swim so low in the water with the head looking down. The rolling of the shoulders really concerned me and the fact that so much of the body is low-parallel to the water, this has to increase drag, especially on the shoulders. One thing I will say is most people who swim using TI have beautiful strokes. But, and there is a but, they just don’t swim fast. Maybe I have just been so isolated here on this island that I have not heard of any, but are there any Olympians using TI? Or, will the young-uns using it be our next generation?
There is a USMS club in Fort Worth who advocated TI. Sadly, now they are deconstructing all those methods because no matter what the workout and intensity, their swimmers’ speeds could never develop. I get to speak to many triathlete swimmers here every March. The Elite (professional) swimmers swim high on top of the water looking forward and they use hip rotation, not shoulder rolling. Many of the age-groupers in this event just don’t understand why they are not swimming faster using TI. Now, we all know that most of the triathletes who were swimmers first, and runners and bikers second, always fare better in the swim portion.
I have said this before and I will say it again, there is more than one way to swim. I swim higher on top of the water looking forward, about a yard or two and use hip rotation. The reason for this is picture a person throwing a rock that skims the lake. The rock is flying on top of the water and not in it, so it moves much faster until its momentum ceases. Now, I know people are not rocks, but the principle is founded. Swimming on top of the water generates power and the swimmer can truly feel it. I swim slightly “planed” outward and upward and skim over the water, not in it.
Nowadays, because I am older and carry more weight, I swim not quite as high on the water and this has evolved over the last ten years or so. So even though I started out swimming “high” on the water looking forward, my stroke has become my own personal one that suits me very well. I also want to mention that I am referring to only freestyle here even though with all of my backstroke days, I, again, swam rather “planed” upward because I could get more rotation on top of the water rather than “in” the water.
I am not trying to cause a brou-ha-ha. I am just curious about the swimming theories and why people select them. And after swimming with any specific theory, are you happy with it?
Donna
Leslie, what I took away from the shoulder injury thread was that what was at issue was more than just technique in the sense of the mechanics of swimming a length, there is how one goes about training in general. If shoulder issues are being caused by volume than one can argue that is too much volume for that swimmer at that time, if it being caused by using paddles then that swimmer should not use paddles, etc.. My take on Terry's point is that if the training regimen a swimmer is using causes injuries then it is the wrong training regimen for that swimmer and that "icing" and pain killers are not the way to solve the problem. In the current thread Terry didn't specify that those swimmers were in the injured lane because of bad technique, just training methods that weren't right for them.
To me it is self-evident that if 20% of your team is in the kick-only lane due to injuries that something is wrong with how they are training.
Wait, is this a straw man? ;) I think we've shifted from technique origins to training origins.
What I took away from the previous two shoulder threads was that Terry was fairly insistent that technique was the main/primary culprit. Now, here, you and and maybe Terry have broadened the initial inquiry by suggesting that perhaps both technique and training are the culprits. It is self-evident that such a position is eminently more defensible than the prior one.
Training is a very broad category. I was just focusing on the technique argument in my post, as I was in the two other threads. Obviously, training encompasses many things, including the things that I said could cause shoulder injuries. So some people in that group of 20% who were "sentenced" at the guillotine to kicking could, in addition to having lousy or sub-par technique, have been using paddles, swimming excessive volume, had anatomical issues, hurt themselves weight training, falling off a bike, sleeping wrong or whatever. :frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated:
No doubt, that college coach was a bad guy while everyone in Terry's camp was a speed demon. I said it before: I'd like to be a speed demon too. :groovy: Since I'm doing a lot of TI-ing, I hope I can be.
I will feel more comfortable with considering endorsing TI when I see people swimming faster using this theory. If speed cannot be developed, then is TI a true swimming theory or is it a learn-to-swim program only.
Terry please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you coach Joe Novak?
Joe swam 20.1 in the 50, 44.1 in the 100. These are pretty fast, at least by my standards.
As for endorsing TI, I wouldn’t endorse or reject it based on just a few good or bas swimmers. However what I do endorse is anyone who is providing products and services to enhance the masters swimming experience and helping adults to be swimming for life. Terry is one of a handful of people who has dedicated his career to providing these programs and services. Just imagine how many more better swimmers we would have if we had 100 such people.
Our triathlon is March 18th this year if anyone is interested and we are a 2-1/2 hour flight from Houston or Atlanta, or 2 hours from Miami. It is a beautiful swim but the biking hills are murder, or so I have been told. And I will do what I always do, enter the swim, keep my mouth shut, and swim my heart out as the experience is one more to add to my bank of memories.
Any chance that you could get hooked up with Randy Nutt and get an open water swim tied into the triathlon?
Our triathlon is March 18th this year if anyone is interested and we are a 2-1/2 hour flight from Houston or Atlanta, or 2 hours from Miami. It is a beautiful swim but the biking hills are murder, or so I have been told. And I will do what I always do, enter the swim, keep my mouth shut, and swim my heart out as the experience is one more to add to my bank of memories.
How far is the swim? I would love to do an ocean swim. It would be a first for me. All of my open water experience has been in small lakes & reservoirs.
Terry,
I want to tell you we all appreciate your passion for teaching swimming. Like Rob said, we need more coaches like you that are PASSIONATE about teaching good technique. I have seen programs that don't stress technique and yes they do seem to have more injuries. My only problem with your posts is how you respond to anyone questioning TI and some of your statements about shoulder injuries. I understand how it is when you passionately believe your way is the best way. You've been coaching for years and have seen what works for your athletes so you want to share it with others. :applaud: But, I think you need to be more objective some times and listen to other's opinions without taking it personally or as an afront to TI. Maybe you could learn something from us old swimmers too? Just my :2cents:
Terry,
I want to tell you we all appreciate your passion for teaching swimming. Like Rob said, we need more coaches like you that are PASSIONATE about teaching good technique. I have seen programs that don't stress technique and yes they do seem to have more injuries. My only problem with your posts is how you respond to anyone questioning TI and some of your statements about shoulder injuries. I understand how it is when you passionately believe your way is the best way. You've been coaching for years and have seen what works for your athletes so you want to share it with others. :applaud: But, I think you need to be more objective some times and listen to other's opinions without taking it personally or as an afront to TI. Maybe you could learn something from us old swimmers too? Just my :2cents:
At least someone gets the very narrow point I was trying to make.
:smooch: :smooch: :smooch: :smooch: :smooch:
Beth, check your pockets for a busines card! :rofl:
That's it, I'm giving up the practice of law. I'm just going to run and swim and kick and go to PTs and go to TI clinics and, because I'm doing the latter, do fly all the time with Beth. (Besides, we can wear fins together and get them caught in our duvet covers.) I know for a fact that she's an elite masters swimmer. I don't know who her coach is though. She's probably going to that SC Champs meet in Texas she's so darn fast ... even with that shoulder problem.
If you're not careful, Rich, I'll take you off my Christmas card list too. :rofl:
Terry,
I think that this statement you made is the most important one you have ever written since I joined this forum:
"Where conventional workouts might be physically taxing, TI practices are designed to challenge every possible faculty that might come into play in a race. We aim to train swimmers to be resourceful and adaptable, as those are qualities that can be of great value in races."
The swim coaches (conventional theory) that I have had the honor of being in their presence also believed this. Fluidity in the water was paramount; body balance, timing of breathing patterns with stroke (breathing too early or too late), smooth swimming that appeared effortless, as little water splashing as possible, no bubbles coming from the hands, hand pitch, hip rotation, EVF, no sculling, and the list goes on and on. These examples lead me to make the point that without my coaches, I would not have been a great swimmer with as many records as I held. They gave me the technique, I gave my heart and energy to the sport.
One problem I have is you continually refer to conventional swimming theory as not a good thing, and I don't see how you have the right to say that given that conventional swimming theory has produced hundreds of elite swimmers and Olympic champions. Maybe you just don't want to be mainstream and are hunting for a niche to be different without foundation. You don't have to want to teach it, but you cannot say it does not, or did not, work. It has worked. History says so.
Much time was spent on our swimming design for it had to be second-nature to us before the intensity of training came about. One difference in theory is we swam on top of the water, not deep in it and I am still pondering why speed has not come about for most TI swimmers yet. But I am leaning toward believing that TI may be a very good thing for beginner swimmers, as long as conditioning runs parallel to it. And from a couple of workouts posted above, it looks as such, and those TI coaches who are the "true" TI coaches believe this because of your personal involvement with them.
I will feel more comfortable with considering endorsing TI when I see people swimming faster using this theory. If speed cannot be developed, then is TI a true swimming theory or is it a learn-to-swim program only.
There are always people in this world who put a title with their name and have not earned it.
Our triathlon is March 18th this year if anyone is interested and we are a 2-1/2 hour flight from Houston or Atlanta, or 2 hours from Miami. It is a beautiful swim but the biking hills are murder, or so I have been told. And I will do what I always do, enter the swim, keep my mouth shut, and swim my heart out as the experience is one more to add to my bank of memories.
Donna
Leslie, what I took away from the shoulder injury thread was that what was at issue was more than just technique in the sense of the mechanics of swimming a length, there is how one goes about training in general. If shoulder issues are being caused by volume than one can argue that is too much volume for that swimmer at that time, if it being caused by using paddles then that swimmer should not use paddles, etc.. My take on Terry's point is that if the training regimen a swimmer is using causes injuries then it is the wrong training regimen for that swimmer and that "icing" and pain killers are not the way to solve the problem. In the current thread Terry didn't specify that those swimmers were in the injured lane because of bad technique, just training methods that weren't right for them.
To me it is self-evident that if 20% of your team is in the kick-only lane due to injuries that something is wrong with how they are training.
3x 600 descend on 12spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
200 easy *** stroke (he's a breaststroker)
3x 600 descend on 13spl (change breathing pattern to descend)
etc etc for a total of 12 600's
each set had to descend yet they got easier as the stroke count relaxed.
Can someone explain the theory behind descending sets? I don't entirely understand the logic behind starting with some sort of handicap like a breathing pattern that makes you slower, or a stroke count that makes you slower, or as I often see in practice just plain swimming slower so that you can descend. I had thought the idea was to swim at a slower pace with better technique and try to maintain good form as you swam faster, but many of the descending sets I see described seem to start with some sort of deliberate handicap, so I suspect I am missing something.
Thanks in advance!
