"What do YOU need to do to have a major swimming breakthrough?"

Do you swim on a team with older swimmers? Have you competed in many masters meets with older swimmers? Just curious as to why you have this attitude that it is a cop out. I'd rather have them "cop out" than not participate. No, you're right. And I did say if you are really old and cannot physically do the stroke, I can see the point. But that isn't what Terry was saying. Terry can do it. He just thinks the other way is easier. (And yes, the older folks on my team swim fly with the dolphin kick. It may not be fast or easy, but they do a great job.)

Do my shoulder exercises, core strength exercises and do more sprints in practice.

Sprinter Girl, Yeh, I do know that races can be won on even hundredths of a second. I am just wondering if not breathing much (3 per 50) is truly beneficial overall as it relates to shaving time off. It'd be interesting to see if any actual facts are out there on this. I certainly wouldn't want to be the case study cause it would hurt too much. I am grateful I am not a sprinter; I don't think my body could survive it and it isn't just because I am older now. Even in my Olympic days, I was best at 200s and 400s; it just felt so much more natural. I never "loved" the 50 back much except it did feel GREAT to travel that fast; you know, a need for speed kind of thing. It all happened too fast and was over in a flash and I never felt much of an accomplishment because the whole thing was a blur. Until I saw the time I swam in it which is what it is all about. My hat is off to sprinters!!! Donna I have been told, not sure if this is correct that every breathe in a 50 is about .1. I have also heard that you will not be affected by the oxygen debt because the race is over before it could truly set in and affect your swim. In races like a 200IM I've heard breathe like crazy on the first 50 (fly) to help prevent oxygen debt down the road ...

Sprinter Girl, Yeh, I do know that races can be won on even hundredths of a second. I am just wondering if not breathing much (3 per 50) is truly beneficial overall as it relates to shaving time off. It'd be interesting to see if any actual facts are out there on this. I certainly wouldn't want to be the case study cause it would hurt too much. I am grateful I am not a sprinter; I don't think my body could survive it and it isn't just because I am older now. Even in my Olympic days, I was best at 200s and 400s; it just felt so much more natural. I never "loved" the 50 back much except it did feel GREAT to travel that fast; you know, a need for speed kind of thing. It all happened too fast and was over in a flash and I never felt much of an accomplishment because the whole thing was a blur. Until I saw the time I swam in it which is what it is all about. My hat is off to sprinters!!! Donna

Fly - I've discovered I swim "Butterfly for Boomers" best with a *** or whip kick, rather than a dolphin. I can increase my Stroke Rate without sacrificing Stroke Length because a quick, compact *** kick drives me forward with more energy and rebalances me more quickly than the dolphin. It also saves energy. Am I the only one who thinks that until I can swim *** with a fly kick, fly with a *** kick shouldn't be allowed?

Terry, I appreciate all of your reading up and experiences with swimming, but I would not, had I been you, told someone to read or revisit the history of Swimming 101. That is not a good way to preface knowledge if you are trying to get someone to listen. On the other hand and I am in agreement with you, I DO remember that the whip kick (frog kick) was used with Butterly for years and years. Also along these lines, backstroke was swum using the double arm-pull which I know was legal in Masters at least up until 1995. And many older people need to use variations so they can enjoy swimming. And now that I am that "older" person, I may eventually have to start using these variations to continue with my lifelong commitment to swimming. Time will tell. I apologize to the folks here on getting off topic. Let's get back to how and what needs to be done to have a major swimming breakthrough. My answer to this is pretty common yet vague: more swimming, better technique, lots of heart and determination, and body strength. And for each person the timeframe will be different. I don't have a magical answer to this huge question. My breakthroughs came after I was lifting a lot of weight, but I thank the lord that I had two world class coaches as I learned technical swimming and hip rotation early in the 60s. I also don't believe there is just "one way" to swim correctly even though I may be dodging bullets by some for saying this. Keeping a person's stroke as natural as it can be for them and tweaking it to fall within that range of technical swimming can create a a beautiful and comfortable swim stroke for an individual. So, does anyone have things they have done to help them break that "barrier?" Happy swimming, Donna

Fly - I've discovered I swim "Butterfly for Boomers" best with a *** or whip kick, rather than a dolphin. I can increase my Stroke Rate without sacrificing Stroke Length because a quick, compact *** kick drives me forward with more energy and rebalances me more quickly than the dolphin. It also saves energy. I found this interesting, do you see a wider role for the breaststroke kick being used or is this a personal strategy for dealing with a weakness with your dolphin kick? I have never tried the whip kick in fly and you've got me curious.

While we are still on "no breathing 50's"........ One shouldn’t look at the elites (Hall, Lezak etc), who may not breathe in a 50 at all and feel you should do the same. They do a 50meters in 22 secs; most of us here would have to hold our breath maybe 25% longer than that to finish a 50 without breathing – much more difficult. Kind of reminds me of elite marathoners who do a 2hr10min marathon and cannot imagine running a 4 hour marathon – how can you run for that long!? Not everything an elite athlete does can be used by most masters. It is probably more profitable to copy an elite swimmer’s breathing technique from their 100 – how does he breathe, remain smooth and not lose speed? For more realistic transferable skills, checkout what Top Ten swimmers in your own age group or the age group below are doing. The guys should checkout women sprinters who are a similar speed to themselves – not relying on brute force, they will almost certainly have better technique perhaps worth copying. Not breathing in sprints is definitely faster; find out what works for you but don’t get hung up over it – work on breathing technique while sprinting and improve the (hopefully few) breaths you have to take. As John Smith has pointed out, other factors like nagging spouses and hangovers make a bigger difference to sprint times than taking two or three breaths. Ian.

While we are still on "no breathing 50's"......... Simple, people want to debate. and debate and debate and debate until all that's left is this...... :dedhorse: and then debate some more! :thhbbb:

i have an idea. new rule. you can swim freestyle whenever you want in a race. that's faster and easier than breastroke or butterfly. yeah. good race. oh wait! that wouldn't be fair. because you're not racing in the exact stroke as the other competitors. you wouldn't win fairly. modifying the strokes is like cheating. i agree with some girl, if you are too old to do butterfly, rules can change. for that age group. but it is ridiculous to think I could go to a race and lose to someone not doing the stroke "properly." Maybe I'll ask the refs if pulling on the lane lines is okay to do during a race if my legs hurt.