I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy.
Over the past five years I have worked very hard to develop clubs and increase membership in USMS. The very fabric of my work and others in this area is building relationships and comradairre within the LMSC and or Club. Small clubs and large teams are proud of their "elite" swimmers and boast of their successes. With this said, it is very disturbing to me as I read through the FINA World Championships Physch Sheets to see the number of elite swimmers "jumping ship" to other clubs to swim on "elite" relays. If USMS had "Team USMS" I would have no problem with everyone coming together for a team effort. I don't have a problem with four guys coming together who swam in college using the Worlds as reunion of sorts. Where I have problem is the swimmer or swimmers who have been a member of a club or LMSC for years and because of individual egos leaves his team. What this says to me is our "elite" swimmers ego is more important than his or her club. How do you think the other 3 swimmers who normally swims on the relay with the "elite" swimmer feels. We are good enough througout the year, however we are not good enough for the Worlds. Instead of swimming for his or her club so all members of the club can be proud of the "elite" swimmers accomplishments, it is more important to this swimmer he or she represent someone else at the Worlds for personal gratification. If the relay team does win and breaks a WR the record does not show USMS as the record holder, but the name of a club the swimmer transferred too.... what a shame...
It is regretable I bring up this discussion, but it tears at the very fabric of the USMS mission regarding building club or LMSC relationships...I realize what these swimmers are doing is within the rules.. I just think it is wrong.
Mel
I like the rules just the way they are. It enabled me to swim on a relay last summer with my son, which was a highpoint of my masters' experience to date. Without the current rules, that would not have been possible.
Also, I thought someone contributed to this thread from Great Britain and discussed their conglomerate teams. The USA is not the only country that allows this freedom.
Rich
Rich:
I see nothing wrong with swimming with your son and I think its great that you had the opportunity to do that. And yes that is one positive that are rules allow and I know of many instances of this being done and no one having a problem with it. I will admit that I never heard of the Conglomerate situation in Britan except I have heard of teams in the armed forces forming for championships to compete as a team. I have heard of a cottage system for teams in Britan where there is a main local club that works as a home base and they have other smaller clubs join them in competitions because they work out on there own and have no coaches and don't really have an organzied club like the large clubs or conglomerates as some have called.
As a I mentioned last year in the Recruiting thread all of this controversy came as a result of what happened in 1988 with the forming of Holmes Lumber Jax. That was the first National team that I can remember and it was not looked at favorably to the rest of the other FINA Nations that competed at the World Championships. People had there own reasons for joining and it was perfectly legal like it is today. I know you were a member of that team and you are part of a relay record from 1990 that is still on the books. At one time, Holmes pretty much dominated masters swimming as a Club at both Nationals and World Championships. They had the best team they could assemble based on the incentives that they provided to the swimmers.
To me and to the others this seemed that we were building a National Team and dominating the World Championships on an uneven playing field. The reason is because other teams were not permitted to do this and were discouraged to do this by there National Federations. Rules like swimming Unattached for a year before switching clubs and then swimming Unattached for another year when wanting to switch again really discouraged this practice. Also with USMS being the largest delegation with swimmers and most organized with meets, coaches, and clubs we have a huge advantage to field teams stronger than anyone.
If you recruit the best swimmers in the nation and form a team and relays based on those swimmers, no other FINA nation is going to have a chance at competiting on a level playing field. Thats a major point that other delegations have because even if they wanted to do what we do, they can't so there forced to compete on an unlevel playing field. This alone will always cause a controversy.
Another point is what happens to the LMSC or Club that is left behind in the process. They are forced to have to do the same practice and recruit from other Clubs and LMSC's or field slower relays because all of the faster swimmers left for superior clubs and relays. Is this really what Masters swimming is all about? This to me sounds like free agency when National or World Championships are going on. There is no sense of belonging and representing something and I will just go my own way as an individual.
Rich, you are on a great LMSC team and you guys won the 2005 USMS SCN Championships in Fort Lauderdale and many of the swimmers set National Records. Isn't that enough. Why would some leave a team like yours to go to another after building the comradely and spirt of your group as a team. I applude you for sticking with your team but in the process when you lose great talent you have to aquire great talent to replace what is lost and that seems to be what is going on judging from your roster.
Rich, you are a great swimmer in your own right and will probably always be unless some unforseen thing happens like an injury or something. All great swimmers would want to swim with you and the only way everyone in the World would except it is if we could get FINA to change that rule. There would probably be a lot of obstacles to go about doing it but if it is not tried there is always going to be controversy regarding this.
There is a 100% chance that 2 of my relay records will be broken at Worlds by a "super team". My attitude is that it's about time these records get wiped off the books.
I know you may find this hard to believe, but I care about how I perform based on my own goals, not about records. In one of my most disapointing masters meets ever I set 3 world records but did not swim as well as I had hoped and expected based on my training. These meets should be about hanging out with your friends, making new ones and swimming as well as your potential allows. Records, top 10, etc. are secondary considerations.
What is the "head to head" challenge all about? It is a very strange comment from someone who won't use his real name.
Rich
I see no problem with it.
I had no idea we as masters swimmers were supposed to be committed to one particular team or LSC. Really? Shouldn't my LSC (Georgia) be pitching that to me?
I swim with lots of different teams and really enjoy mixing up my practices and seeing if I can succeed in different swim environments - it stays totally challenging and it keeps me swimming day in and day out. . .
As a kid, I remember all the slower "have nots" swimmers and parents of the "have nots" always whining and complaining about the "haves" or the swimmers who were the most talented and dedicated and setting the records.
I actually had a team mom remove some of my records and replace them with slower team swims for flimsy, made up reasons like, "the team is now called the sharks" even though the team was the same. Learn to deal with fast swimmers people! If you are slower, then either work harder or admit you are slower! To me this sounds like people crying because others are too fast - how unfair!
I see no problem with four people taking initiative and getting together to break records.
Take this thinking one step further and we may as well not even have compeititons for fear of hurting others' feelings.
What is the "head to head" challenge all about? It is a very strange comment from someone who won't use his real name.
Yeah, it's like: C'mon let's fight after school - if I'm not there, start without me!
H'mmm, would that be a false start?
This thread is like deja vu all over again. I admit, back in '88 in Australia for Worlds, I was quite put off by the super-team that Frank has alluded to previously. Ironically, that was back when I was consistently world top 10 level in several events, while now you would need a telescope to spot me, I feel live and let live. Certainly we can all agree that none of this is outside the current rules and if dissatisfied can lobby for change. I personally would find it a gas to see Rich swim with his son, as I would also enjoy seeing the Geek swimming with a big, ugly catfish (not a blood relative, but a close resemblance).
By the way, I nominate Frank, Matt, Lindsay & Mel as an elite forum strike-force to initiate a 'smother the fire' strategy the next time we have one of our occasional Ionic eruptions.
Originally posted by Rich Abrahams
Rich, I met you on the bus at Phoenix Nationals. I was in awe of you then and I like you even more after reading your reply! You are truly an inspiration to all us Masters swimmers not only because of your dedication to personal excellence but also because you never forget what Masters is truly about!
You da man! :D
Why doesn't the rest or World's Master Swimmers have the same rules as the USMS?
Why haven't they been changed to match USMS?
Why haven't USMS rules been changed to match the other FINA Master rules?
If we are all following the rules.... what's the problem?
If you don't like it, change it. Either side.
I would very much like this International World meet to be played on an even field with all teams under the same rules and each Nation being able to build their best relays/teams for this World event. It can only help our exposure to Masters Swimming.
Don't you want the best against the best?
We have the club meet rivalry for National competition. It's fun and can be very competitive.
Why can't we try it all? Club competition for Local and National meets and National competition for the World and International meets.
Let the Games Begin.
Whoa....I haven't posted in a long time. I just went back and read the previous posts and saw "swim4life". We are 2 different people....ironically both from Ga.! I promise... its not me!
