I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy.
Over the past five years I have worked very hard to develop clubs and increase membership in USMS. The very fabric of my work and others in this area is building relationships and comradairre within the LMSC and or Club. Small clubs and large teams are proud of their "elite" swimmers and boast of their successes. With this said, it is very disturbing to me as I read through the FINA World Championships Physch Sheets to see the number of elite swimmers "jumping ship" to other clubs to swim on "elite" relays. If USMS had "Team USMS" I would have no problem with everyone coming together for a team effort. I don't have a problem with four guys coming together who swam in college using the Worlds as reunion of sorts. Where I have problem is the swimmer or swimmers who have been a member of a club or LMSC for years and because of individual egos leaves his team. What this says to me is our "elite" swimmers ego is more important than his or her club. How do you think the other 3 swimmers who normally swims on the relay with the "elite" swimmer feels. We are good enough througout the year, however we are not good enough for the Worlds. Instead of swimming for his or her club so all members of the club can be proud of the "elite" swimmers accomplishments, it is more important to this swimmer he or she represent someone else at the Worlds for personal gratification. If the relay team does win and breaks a WR the record does not show USMS as the record holder, but the name of a club the swimmer transferred too.... what a shame...
It is regretable I bring up this discussion, but it tears at the very fabric of the USMS mission regarding building club or LMSC relationships...I realize what these swimmers are doing is within the rules.. I just think it is wrong.
Mel
Former Member
Frank- I think we should 'focus' on this guy really 'close-up' through a sharp 'lens'; it should be a 'snap', perhaps the answer will 'develop' in a 'flash' to the question I 'posed'...perhaps I should 'f-stop' now?
Vlad, I am glad to get the chance to say "nice job" on your 100 free this past season. I only got about 1 day worth of being too big for my britches before a friend sent me the link to your swim. Congratulations on getting the USMS record.
I look forward to meeting you at Worlds. It will be fun to race.
Thanks Mike!!!
Sorry that was just one day...
We should blame everything on IL Masters Swimming:D
You said, that you swim well last weekend...tell us more!
Will be interesting to meet everyone from discussion forums :D
Vlad, I did a 57.8 in the 100 fly, a 24.48 in the 50 free and a 52.89 in the 100 free. I was very happy with those times.
Now, back to the controversy...
You all heard it! Vlad is trying to recruit swimmers!
:D
Vlad, if you will tell me how to go under 50 in the 100 free, I am your humble student. I wouldn't mind learning how to go 1:46 in the 200 free, too, but I will take it one stroke at a time.
Swm4Life:
I think you missed the point entirely. This is not about haves and have nots. This is about a FINA World Championship were the rules say that you compete as Clubs and not as a Nation. Because of the nature of masters swimming, the organization, rules, clubs, coaches, swimmers, and workout schedules we have a lot more leeway when we swim in competitions compared to other swimming organizations such as USA Swimming, High School Swimming, and NCAA Swimming. This practice could never go on because of the structure, rules, coaches, clubs and swimmers in these organizations. I challenge you to name me one organization be it USA club, HS, or NCAA where this happens. You know what, you can't. Why, because the rules that govern these organizations club, schools, coaches, and swimmers would never allow it.
In these type of organizations you could never develop talent in a team environment and a coach would have a hard time building a succesful team of swimmers committed to achieving goals. The only situation that this takes place is when USA Swimming builds a National team with the express purpose of getting the fastest persons on the team to represent this country as a National Delegation and the coaches are in charge to pick relays based on the talent of the National team entry. The swimmers are picked based on the critera that is set by the organization. Usually a trials meet takes place and the National team is set. Relays are always not straight forward and the coaches set there own critera to pick those relays. This is the only instance besides what is done is now in USMS that I ever heard of a policy of forming a national team based on the fastest swimmers with the fastest times.
It has been mentioned that some in Masters swimming would like to go to a National Federation format and this policy would be ok if every FINA member delegation agreed to it and it was accepted by FINA. Right now if other nations follow the FINA policy and operate and swim relays as Clubs, they are not on a level playing field with the clubs that do not do this.
Many years ago I was asked to name one nation or governing body that practiced what some clubs were doing here in the USA. I couldn't name one and if someone can name one outside of the USA at this championship I would be interested in hearing what Club/Nation that is.
Until the rule is changed, there will always be a controversy and the teams that do it are perfectly legal to do it as long as they meet the national guidelines for timing to get all of the people to join the club in time. Even people that do this admit that its kind of like team whoring. Except in this case, I really believe the team is not doing it for financial incentives like a whore or pimp but to establish a world standard in the relays and be proud Americans doing it. I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as the FINA changed the rules and recognized this as they do in Swimming and other nations could do the same thing and be proud of there accomlishements and be playing on a level playing field.
Well said, Frank.
Any way you look at it, it seems to be a tricky situation. It would be difficult to ever make it a true World Championship unless National teams could be assembled and travel for its members funded through National organizations.
Then the question would become...what do you about all the "have nots" that comprise 90% of Masters Swimming but are unable to participate on a nationally funded team? Should they represent their country or their club? be excluded?
I would like to see some of the world swimming veterans propose some idealistic solutions on this thread, making the assumption that the governing bodies would all agree to the proposal. (a big leap - I admit).
Sincerely,
A Never Had
I started this thread and I could not have said it better. Thanks Frank and hopefully we will have all these "super whores" on our USMS International Committee to help change the rules...but until then you said it best.
Originally posted by onlyfree
Hey Vlad, leave Mike alone! He's already on OUR team and OUR relays are needier. And we love Mike.
Hey guys...
I'm not recruiting anybody :D
I'm just impressed with his times...ESPESIALLY with Fly times :D
