Controversy...Is it all about winning!

If Worlds was a scored meet, I would have not changed teams. That's all I have to say about that.

Do the other countries that participate group their elite together for relays? If so then we need to be as competitive and group USMS members together. This would be under a National Team to represent the U.S. in International Competition. I'm all for a "Team USMS" for Worlds or other International meets. The key is they would need to swim under the "Team USMS". This would only be for the Worlds or other International meets.

Mel: I know you brought this up back in 1988 and it seems to me nothing as changed in 18 years except maybe someone is not funding elite swimmers across the country for a Team USA club for the purpose of smashing USMS and World Records. I remember I had met some foreign swimmers in my age group at the meet you ran in 1992 and they were giving me the business about this practice at dinner. They told me that there national governing bodies forbidded them to do this practice and they thought it was elitist, controlling, and imperialistic that we were permitted by our USMS rules to do this. That as the largest masters national governing body of swimmers that we already have an advantage with our strong clubs and be permitted to build National Club teams is not playing on an even playing field. Most of them said to me that in their rules they have to swim Unattached for a year to switch clubs and then when they want to switch again they have to swim Unnattached for a year again to get back with there original clubs.

Originally posted by nyswim How is this any different from Nationals where states ( Colorado and Illinois ) combine teams to show up with 300 swimmers? It's different in that it's cherry picking specific talent rather than just using a large geographic area to define a team.

LMSC teams have everyone regardless of abilty swimming as part of their rosters. Some of these teams and I won't mention names because it has been talked about before on other threads recruit just elite swimmers for their rosters with the intention of breaking USMS and World Records. In the old days they used to try and win Championships but with the new scoring or no scoring in divisions its harder to do and most of the time some team locally either be LMSC or Club usually wins the team title. Clubs like my club, Michigan Masters is made up of teams and workout groups in our LMSC and we form relays based on who signs up and the age group of the swimmer. We do not recruit around the country for elite swimmers. Occasionally if a brother, sister, mom, dad, or other family members want to swim together, fine than its ok but it really comes down to the intent of the swimmer and what he/she wants out of the meet and team their representing. When they post the team rosters on this website people will be able to figure out who those teams are by the individual swimmers they know who have represented a team or club for years.

Mel, I consider you a friend and have the utmost respect for you and your opinions as always. I will however disagree and in my own humble opinion see the glass here as "half full" vs. "half empty". My position has always been that this is the world championships and thus should be a competition held between countries not clubs....just as in USS. Fina on the other hand has a rule that does not allow this to happen, one I hope will be changed down the road. I'd very much like to see USMS grow, in all areas that we represent; fitness, competition, etc. etc. and I beleive that publicity helps. Not a lot of interest in our media in swimmig to begin with and with Boulder Aquatic masters relays challenging Club Chelsea it would probably be much the same.....however Team USA 160+ up against Team Australia 160+ in the 200 free relay sounds pretty good! I will be at Stanford proudly swimming for Team TYR along with some friends and competitors that I may or may not ever swam with back in college.....not for ego as you see it, but getting a chance to be a team mate with someone I've never had that chance with before. As for my club mates back home, if they would prefer that I not be allowed to come back and swim for them next year I'll grant that wish. I've explained to anyone who's asked why I made the decision and have had 100% support....most understood that there is no team scoring at worlds so I haven't taken points away. And as far as leaving 3 swimmers behind, I see it as a chance for a 4th swimmer who has never been on our relay to have that chance at an incredible meet such as this.....half full! PS: Indeed some of our foreign friends are banding together as well.....

Ed: It is my understanding that FINA does not want masters swimming to compete as National Federations but as they are naturally, like the club you would normally represent at Local, State or National competition. There have been suggestions for our FINA reps to go to the FINA technical meetings and get this changed so all of the masters swimmers could represent there National federations like swimmers in the Olympics/World Championships do. It has been said that to do this with FINA would be like hitting a brick wall. They discourage this and want to keep things the way they are. That is why there is such lax rules regarding eligibility representation of masters swimmers with FINA. You could swim for any country or federation in good standing at any time and there is no eligibility or citzenship requirements like there is for the Olympic/Word Championship swimmers. You could recruit the best swimmers in the World and form a relay at these World Championships and it would be perfectly legal under the FINA rules to do that. You could not do this under Swimmming with the current rules FINA has for federations to follow.

Team Whore Maybe "Team Hussy" wouldn't be quite so (potentially) offensive. But I understand.

who cares what consenting masters swimmers do behind closed pool doors will this really destroy the fabric of USMS teams some of these swimmers train on their own let them play with their friends enjoy their performances and celebrate their accomplishments isn't masters swimming about training to stay healthy and discovering what people are capable of as the years go by? ande Originally posted by Mel I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy. Over the past five years I have worked very hard to develop clubs and increase membership in USMS. The very fabric of my work and others in this area is building relationships and comradairre within the LMSC and or Club. Small clubs and large teams are proud of their "elite" swimmers and boast of their successes. With this said, it is very disturbing to me as I read through the FINA World Championships Physch Sheets to see the number of elite swimmers "jumping ship" to other clubs to swim on "elite" relays. If USMS had "Team USMS" I would have no problem with everyone coming together for a team effort. I don't have a problem with four guys coming together who swam in college using the Worlds as reunion of sorts. Where I have problem is the swimmer or swimmers who have been a member of a club or LMSC for years and because of individual egos leaves his team. What this says to me is our "elite" swimmers ego is more important than his or her club. How do you think the other 3 swimmers who normally swims on the relay with the "elite" swimmer feels. We are good enough througout the year, however we are not good enough for the Worlds. Instead of swimming for his or her club so all members of the club can be proud of the "elite" swimmers accomplishments, it is more important to this swimmer he or she represent someone else at the Worlds for personal gratification. If the relay team does win and breaks a WR the record does not show USMS as the record holder, but the name of a club the swimmer transferred too.... what a shame... It is regretable I bring up this discussion, but it tears at the very fabric of the USMS mission regarding building club or LMSC relationships...I realize what these swimmers are doing is within the rules.. I just think it is wrong. Mel

Kokkole, you just made my day with your "VERY HOT" male 200+ medley relay. I'm swimming on a 200+ male medley relay that could easily be criticized (by those who care) as cherry picking elite swimmers in order to establish a new standard. However, the other 3 swimmers on the relay probably wouldn't have gotten to swim on any realys at Worlds without switching their LMSC to mine. Also, I've totally bonded with two of these teamates over the years and it has been a long standing desire to swim together as buddies. Anyway, look for the older guys wearing our relay motto T-shirts ("RELEASE THE HOUNDS") and say hello. A post relay beer may be in order. Rich