What do you think of total immersion?

Originally posted by Ion Beza Joe Novak was also coached by Dave Salo at Nova in Irvine. To whom do you attribute his results? And, are we going to declare now that tenths of coaches who groom faster swimmers than Joe Novak with methods opposite to Total Immersion -like no pause in freestyle, higher and higher Stroke Rate, kicking sets with a board-, they are all more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Coaches like Murray Stevens -who produced many Olympians, including Michael Phelps-, John Carew -who produced Olympian Kieren Perkins-, Denis Cottrel -who produces Grant Hackett-, Doug Frost -who produced Ian Thorpe-, Stephane Widmar -who produces Libby Lenton, the new World Record holder in the 100 meter freestyle-, Genady Touretski -who produced Alex. Popov-, Mike Bottom -who produces Gary Hall Jr. and many other Olympians-, Rick de Mont -who produces Roland Schoeman and Rik Neethling-, Nort Thornton -who produced Matt Biondi-, Bill Rose -who produces Larsen Jensen-, Mark Schubert -who produces Erik Vendt-, Sam Freas, Dave Salo -who produces Jason Lezak-, *** Schoulberg. If constantly over many decades producing Olympians -like Murray Stevens does- that is too revolutionary for Total Immersion, then are we going to declare that high school and age group swimming coaches who produce with methods opposite to Total Immersion teenagers swimming the 100 yards freestyle in 43 and 44 seconds, are they more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Last year Brophy Prep in Arizona did that. Before last year, Xavier in Ohio did that. What is the point to keep on hammering this? That is why at the beginning of this thread I linked the past threads so we could spare a trip down memory lane. In fact, I referenced a thread on the USA Swimming site "Terry Laughlin Enough Already" that you are fimilar with because I believe we are going nowhere with this and we just keep repeating the same things that have been said for the last year. The reason I brought the link stories about Adrienne Binder and Joe Novak in this discussion was that Craig III and Gull wanted to know if there were elite swimmers using these TI methods to valid there training philosophy and swimming success. As Gull said, TI does not have a patent on their drills and they package a swim product and successfully market that product. The customer of this market is usually novice swimmers, lap swimmers, and triathletes. I never said that Total Immersion was revolutionary. And I don't dispute all of the coaches and swimmers you list as being successful with other methods that could possibly be called revolutionary. The whole point of adding the link stories was not to dispute any findings but to see a view point from someone who swam at a top level and what there coaches tell us about that success. What I found interesting about Joe Novak was not about his success or lack of it in swimming, but his ideas about TI and why he was converted or born again so to speak about TI and his swimming. He now coaches using the TI principals and he incorporates his swimming experiences with those principals. That angle was not discussed here and that is why I linked the stories. Just another opinion, take it or leave it. I can't really comment on his results because I don't think Joe competed much with David Salo at Nova. There is a swimming tracking website where you can track his results but I can't think of the name of the site right now. I know he didn't swim the 2004 Olympic Trials and I believe he swam some USA National meets before that time. Maybe his service obligations got in the way, who knows. From the articles, I believe he is coaching with TI now.

Originally posted by Ion Beza Joe Novak was also coached by Dave Salo at Nova in Irvine. To whom do you attribute his results? And, are we going to declare now that tenths of coaches who groom faster swimmers than Joe Novak with methods opposite to Total Immersion -like no pause in freestyle, higher and higher Stroke Rate, kicking sets with a board-, they are all more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Coaches like Murray Stevens -who produced many Olympians, including Michael Phelps-, John Carew -who produced Olympian Kieren Perkins-, Denis Cottrel -who produces Grant Hackett-, Doug Frost -who produced Ian Thorpe-, Stephane Widmar -who produces Libby Lenton, the new World Record holder in the 100 meter freestyle-, Genady Touretski -who produced Alex. Popov-, Mike Bottom -who produces Gary Hall Jr. and many other Olympians-, Rick de Mont -who produces Roland Schoeman and Rik Neethling-, Nort Thornton -who produced Matt Biondi-, Bill Rose -who produces Larsen Jensen-, Mark Schubert -who produces Erik Vendt-, Sam Freas, Dave Salo -who produces Jason Lezak-, *** Schoulberg. If constantly over many decades producing Olympians -like Murray Stevens does- that is too revolutionary for Total Immersion, then are we going to declare that high school and age group swimming coaches who produce with methods opposite to Total Immersion teenagers swimming the 100 yards freestyle in 43 and 44 seconds, are they more entitled than Total Immersion to the label revolutionary? Last year Brophy Prep in Arizona did that. Before last year, Xavier in Ohio did that. What is the point to keep on hammering this? That is why at the beginning of this thread I linked the past threads so we could spare a trip down memory lane. In fact, I referenced a thread on the USA Swimming site "Terry Laughlin Enough Already" that you are fimilar with because I believe we are going nowhere with this and we just keep repeating the same things that have been said for the last year. The reason I brought the link stories about Adrienne Binder and Joe Novak in this discussion was that Craig III and Gull wanted to know if there were elite swimmers using these TI methods to valid there training philosophy and swimming success. As Gull said, TI does not have a patent on their drills and they package a swim product and successfully market that product. The customer of this market is usually novice swimmers, lap swimmers, and triathletes. I never said that Total Immersion was revolutionary. And I don't dispute all of the coaches and swimmers you list as being successful with other methods that could possibly be called revolutionary. The whole point of adding the link stories was not to dispute any findings but to see a view point from someone who swam at a top level and what there coaches tell us about that success. What I found interesting about Joe Novak was not about his success or lack of it in swimming, but his ideas about TI and why he was converted or born again so to speak about TI and his swimming. He now coaches using the TI principals and he incorporates his swimming experiences with those principals. That angle was not discussed here and that is why I linked the stories. Just another opinion, take it or leave it. I can't really comment on his results because I don't think Joe competed much with David Salo at Nova. There is a swimming tracking website where you can track his results but I can't think of the name of the site right now. I know he didn't swim the 2004 Olympic Trials and I believe he swam some USA National meets before that time. Maybe his service obligations got in the way, who knows. From the articles, I believe he is coaching with TI now.