Recruiting

Originally posted by Rob Copeland Connie asked “So, which direction does USMS want to take to contribute in trying to remedy this situation?” And without seeming completely ignorant, of which situation specifically do you speak? For the most part, I was trying to keep within context and the issue that knelson brought up, that doesn't seem to be isolated to his area. The issue being that pools appear to be losing ground to either cuts in public support, or because private or semi-private facilities need something other then just swimmers to keep their doors open. I have seen and heard that this is not isolated to a negligable number of incidents. I;ve also seen brand new facilities built and exceed their financial goals within the first year of operation (Like Santa Clarita) and much like our own pool, facility turned over to a self supporting foundation tasked with operating like a private business, and making it, so, I know it's possible. I know there are models of sucessful teams, sucessful facilities out there. Well, what better way to market pools and facilities but to show them now to financially benefit from a masters group. Yea, I know there's a brochure out... Are you talking about club situations or LMSC/national operations situations? It appears the situation of which you speak deals with how clubs are managed and operated. Am I missing something? If this is an endemic club issue then USMS someone should ask USMS to officially look into this. My concern is that USMS does not have the manpower to mediate on behalf of each club and that most clubs aren’t to keen on mandates from the national office (as occurs in USA-Swimming). Not really to mandate things. There are several things that USMS as a whole can do, starting with promoting itself on the national level, to providing informational tools to the LMSC's and clubs on how to grow and thrive. There are *some* materials to that effect already available, but IMO, they are very limited, and what I'm hearing from 'the trenches' more informational and marketing materials from the USMS to the local areas would be welcomed. I'm going to stay at the conceptual level here on the buletin board, and not get in a lot of detail. I don't know if youl're familiar of not with my getting involved with the marketing comittee at the last convention... Well, there's a lot more that I think our Marketing can accomplish with little less talk and some more focused eforts. Well, we wrote a new marketing plan which targeted some short term efforts. With the governance change, I think we need to follow up with a comprehensive marketing plan that will address the issues that we're talking about in here, and many others. I'm sorry I'm not getting into an elaboration of them all, it's about 15-20 minutes befoire my bedtime. Not the right time of the day to start a comprehensive outline and a point by point xample with ideas on addressing the issues. Connie providing improved products and service to USMS clubs and members is extremely important to me. And I’d be very interested in hearing any solutions that will help our clubs. Well, you will be hearing from me, I'm your current Marketing Vice chair eyeing the marketing chair position, and as I understand you're most likely going to be the next USMS president... So, I expect at some point we'll be talking in a more formal setting, at the convention, or similar, and in much more depth then we can here on the bulletin board. I'm also waiting to see who will be elected as the VP of member services. Anyways, if you're interested, you will be hearing a lot of my ideas, not really my ideas alone, but ideas that I gathered by talking to many people within my LMSC, and some from people outside the LMSC.

Connie- believe it or not, I've been plowing through every word. Little wonder that heat arises with some of this stuff as inevitably the philosophical/political aspects ignite passions somewhat reflective of the vehement debates usually along party lines that define acrimony. What I think everyone is trying (or should be) for the pragmatic fixes to some of the dysfunctions identified. What has come out in some of the later posts is how different the experiences are for different clubs & their swimmers depending on affiliation, historical factors, regional economy, political will- you name it, all rendering a debate very difficult because we're all reflecting our different experiences. To illustrate, here are my two main club experiences since entering masters (1984): North Vancouver was my first club & their pool time & coaching were all provided by the municipality as a recreation program: you could pay drop in, monthly, seasonally etc. Their insurance covered in-pool practise issues. If you wanted to join the master's swim club, all you paid was the registration fee to Masters B.C. After a year or so I began to realize that this was an unusual setup compared to other swimmers I met at meets & seeing as I bumped into the then administrator for recreation programming at a party, I asked about it & received this (abridged) reply, "We regard exercise among the highest strategies to avoid catastrophic loads on our health care system, both from people who are seniors now & from the baby boomers just entering ages of higher risk. We can pay now, or pay a lot more later." Nanaimo was my next & current club. We are orgaization that rents pool time period. The city has a six level scheme that it slots users into that determines both fee level & pool priority. When I first arrived, we were a 'level 2' (same as age group, synchro etc), then a new administration arrived that reclassified us as a level 6 (the lowest, same as a for-profit scuba lesson rental for example), as well, they tried to get us to swim at 11pm at night. We spent a great deal of political capital getting most of the damage reversed (age discrimination suit threatened etc., 'cause the age groupers had stayed high priority). Nasty situation, grudges nursed, etc. A new pool has eased things, but never have I experienced the sense of being valued as a user that North Vancouver projected. Lest I write a novel here, my point in detailing this has only be illustrative of two different experiences; imagine across USMS membership.

Are you talking about USMS? Um, gee, no I'm not, Connie. I do not work for USMS, and I believe you know that. Yeah, I thought so, I was wondering if I didn;t miss something... I was talking about the Kentucky Geological Survey, my employer. Your broad stroke condemnation of government included me, and I was merely trying to point out that far from spending $8 on nails, we're actually pretty careful with spending the taxpayers' money, because guess what, we're taxpayers too. I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, but I think your arguments have gone far off topic and some are unfair. Well, the context of the reference to government in this thread was for the most part cities and those branches of government that would have to do with pools and swimming, not necessarily with every branch of government everywhere. I think we need to keep our interpretations general terms within context of the conversation. I mean, seriously, do you think anyone reading the thread about USMS, property taxes and cities closing down the pools will think that the reference to government in the conversation has to do wth the US Geological Survey. Do I need to start using the attorney lingo here to clarify. Let me do this, in this thread wer'e talking about several cities, some schools and a branch of government that is subsidizing several other USAS sports (I think it's a federal entity) are hereinafter and for the purpose of this conversation refered to as "government". Do I really have to recite each one of those seperately every time I want to refer to them on the conceptual level, so someone wouldn't make a mistake of thinking that the context of the conversation is all of government everywhere???

Originally posted by PeirsolFan Um... Any way we can get a summary of proposed ideas thus far in this thread? Don't look at me, I'm too tired. I'll have a lot of this in a proposed marketing plan (at least my version of it) after the convention. Convention (occuring in couple of weeks or so) is the place where a lot of what you see here gets more seriously discussed. Are you going to be at the convention? Do you know about it?

originally posted by Peter Cruise Connie- believe it or not, I've been plowing through every word. Little wonder that heat arises with some of this stuff as inevitably the philosophical/political aspects ignite passions somewhat reflective of the vehement debates usually along party lines that define acrimony. What I think everyone is trying (or should be) for the pragmatic fixes to some of the dysfunctions identified. uhhh....huh?...what?.....Where's that dictionary (and/or Kirk) when I need it!.....I think though that the word "is" should lie between the words "for" and "the" in the last sentence?.....that helps a little perhaps?....thanks for your interesting experiences though....you're Canadian so I'll forgive you for the first paragraph. Newmastersswimmer

Originally posted by Peter Cruise Connie- believe it or not, I've been plowing through every word. Little wonder that heat arises with some of this stuff as inevitably the philosophical/political aspects ignite passions somewhat reflective of the vehement debates usually along party lines that define acrimony. What I think everyone is trying (or should be) for the pragmatic fixes to some of the dysfunctions identified. What has come out in some of the later posts is how different the experiences are for different clubs & their swimmers depending on affiliation, historical factors, regional economy, political will- you name it, all rendering a debate very difficult because we're all reflecting our different experiences. To illustrate, here are my two main club experiences since entering masters (1984): North Vancouver was my first club & their pool time & coaching were all provided by the municipality as a recreation program: you could pay drop in, monthly, seasonally etc. Their insurance covered in-pool practise issues. If you wanted to join the master's swim club, all you paid was the registration fee to Masters B.C. After a year or so I began to realize that this was an unusual setup compared to other swimmers I met at meets & seeing as I bumped into the then administrator for recreation programming at a party, I asked about it & received this (abridged) reply, "We regard exercise among the highest strategies to avoid catastrophic loads on our health care system, both from people who are seniors now & from the baby boomers just entering ages of higher risk. We can pay now, or pay a lot more later." Nanaimo was my next & current club. We are orgaization that rents pool time period. The city has a six level scheme that it slots users into that determines both fee level & pool priority. When I first arrived, we were a 'level 2' (same as age group, synchro etc), then a new administration arrived that reclassified us as a level 6 (the lowest, same as a for-profit scuba lesson rental for example), as well, they tried to get us to swim at 11pm at night. We spent a great deal of political capital getting most of the damage reversed (age discrimination suit threatened etc., 'cause the age groupers had stayed high priority). Nasty situation, grudges nursed, etc. A new pool has eased things, but never have I experienced the sense of being valued as a user that North Vancouver projected. Lest I write a novel here, my point in detailing this has only be illustrative of two different experiences; imagine across USMS membership. I couldn't agree with you more! That's just why it bugs me when people decide that no, we don't need growth, or this is good or this is not good based on their local experiences. I strongly believe that if masters swimming had more pull or respect or recognition as a whole, among pool operators and general public, and even within swimming community, then your political battle may have been little easier! I forget where I wrote this, here in the forums or in a privatre email, one of the things that I think need to happen is some analisys of whom is doing what and how, and whith what kind of sucess rates and what their obstacles are, and how they've been solved... Basically a good SWOT analisys (after some research is done), then we can figure out how much USMS can do on the national level, how much assistance they can provice locally and to what extent. Also, I envision more than just one or two tools available for that. There might be 5 or 6 business models that are distinct. To me, once we agree on the big picture, we can do some analisys and work out the details on how to go about the big picture. There are many aspects to it. Last year I pushed that the marketing committee goes through the exercise of writing a marketing plan, partly as a tool to think in detail about all these things. What bugs me enormously is that only a 20 bullet action plan got written, and a lot of things didn't get done. Yet again, the thought process, the SWOT analisys the aligniong with the USMS objectives and supporting them, polling of the other comittees and finding ways to interact and assist in their marketing needs, lot of things that go into a comprehensive marketing plan did not happen. The whole effort boilrd down to discussing and writing out some short term action items. And even those, even with being the comitte Vice Chair (recently appointed), I can't seem to get a rundown of whom is doing what. Seems like there is a lack of understanding as to the understanding the purpose of the committee, within the committee itself. There are several people on the comittee that seem to think if it's something we can't do right now, we shouldn't even be talking about possibilities and what if's. Well, marketing and business direction (business plans) are all about possibilities and what if's and planing for things down the road. If they don't understand that, maybe they're not the best fit for marketing. Also, as soon as an idea pops up, some people start resisting it, as if it's suddenly going to become a one size fits all solution, rather then a case study... So often you wind up unable to even talk through a case study and move on to the next example.

Originally posted by newmastersswimmer uhhh....huh?...what?.....Where's that dictionary (and/or Kirk) when I need it!.....I think though that the word "is" should lie between the words "for" and "the" in the last sentence?.....that helps a little perhaps?....thanks for your interesting experiences though....you're Canadian so I'll forgive you for the first paragraph. Newmastersswimmer Can someone tell me what the meaning if "Is" Is? I'm getting lost in the if's, and's or but's. ;)

Why would you think that? Heated debates are just fine as long as we don't stoop to personal insults flying all over the place while the topic of the debate is lost. I was worried I had gone little overboard I'm curious about your team situation. Why has your team not raised the Masters dues? Just do it, and raise the coaches salary. The coach is resisting, he is afraid that it will drive away people. He doesn't want to be the highest priced masters program in the area. Many are afraid to raise the dues because "masters everywhere else" are not paying much more. (I know, sounds like that old saying, if everyone else is going to jump off the bridge...) I mean, I love my coach to pieces - literally, but he's pretty shy when it comes to asking the fair price for his services. I'm seeing that this is not all that unusual among a number of coaches. I'm also seeing several very succesful coaches whom are actually making a good living by being coaches departing from USMS... Well, I had the pleasure to have a pretty in depth conversations with a a few of them over the last year Another question - you've mentioned monthly dues for the Masters and kids teams, but you have not mentioned the pool rental fees paid by these teams. Are they the same or different? If the two teams pay the same rate for the pool use (or a slightly different rate for non-optimal times), then the membership fee rate difference is not related to the pool use. In the case of our team, neither the kids nor the masters pay the pool rental. City of Mission Viejo owns the land and the facility, what they did is formed a foundation that is sort of a trustee of the pool, for the public. The foundation makes sure that there is money for operations, for utilities for maintenance etc. Not a penny comes from the city, and the foundation does not pay the city any money for the facility. It takes about 20K a month in utilities and maintenance to keep the facility operational, plus another amount (I don't know how much exactly that part is) to pay the coaches to run the swim training part of the program. There's no rent to pay. The money that the kids pay and the money that masters pay all goes into the same money pot. Every swimmer on the team is a member of the foundation, they vote for whom the board of directors are each term, they are welcome to many of the meetings etc... So, in effect the facility is operated by the swimmers who use it, and the money to operate it, and how it's going to be used also comes from the swimmers. I see your team situation as a local team issue. Because you swim at an independantly run pool in a very expensive part of the country, I would expect dues to be higher there. You mentioned that other nearby teams swim at college pools where expenses for the Masters team may be less. That is just a fact of life. If people want to swim at Mission Viejo and keep the pool open, they should be willing to pay for it one way or another (through taxes or direct use fees). EEExactly! If the local government is footing some of the bill, you may want to consider having a different fee structure for those that live within the area supporting the pool via taxes and those that live elsewhere. That's not an uncommon arrangement - all of the municipal pools in our area have different resident and non-resident fees for using the facilities. Well, I was trying to adress the comments of couple of people complaining that the cities are closing down the pools in their area, for the lack of funding. Well, if the cities won't keep the pool open, which is what was happening to nadadores facility several years ago, then they may have to do what nadadores did, turn it into a self supporting facility. (rather than complain about how government won't do it) I don't believe that your team and pool situation is representative of the majority of Masters programs. Our team works out at a lousy 5-lane pool in a K-12 school, at a nice new college pool, and at a municipal pool in the summer. We pay the going rate for pool rental at all three pools. There are no established USA Swimming teams paying the way for us through higher pool fees at any of these pools. I'm glad to hear that. I'm also hearing from a number of people who are seeing the similar situation to what I described, where there is a disparity. Looks like we have several fee structure and business strategy models going. That is a good thing to know when formulating how to approach potential pool operator to get them interested in a masters group. Different pools in the area charge different rates, and we have shopped around to find the best rates for decent available pool time. We can't afford the set rate for the nice new 50 meter indoor municipal pool in the area so we don't work out there. The point is that the situation is different for teams and pools all over the country. I don't believe that any one team is representative of all of USMS. I don't think I ever suggested that one pool is an example for all. I was using the example that I'm most familiar with (my own) with the knowledge that there is a fair number of incidents of similar nature. I thin it would be a worth while market research task to find out little more factual inormation thenwhat we know anecdotally how many other operating models are out there, asociated costs, sucess rates etc... This kind of information can really help us strategise various marketing efforts. Different parts of the country may need different marketing approaches, as they may have different needs. I think it would behoove us on the national level to know who needs what and why and how badly, and to what extent we can assist them. Sometimes we may be of a lot of assistance, other times not as much. Mrketing efforts may range from USMS people actually helping locally, to just motivating various LMSC's or current and potential coaches and masters program leaders to take action by providing them more information, or how to workshops. Really, other than just rambling about it here on the bulletin board, I think number of these things need a closer examination. Things I'm talking about here, I'm talking on the conceptual and 'idea' level

Hey Jim- persons who have newly revealed long-dreaded nicknames shouldn't critique others...besides, I was writing that epistle whilst waiting on bookstore customers; a few connecting words are going to go astray. I try & use the correct word for my thought, sorry if you find that obfuscatory (hee hee).

originally posted by Peter Cruise Hey Jim- persons who have newly revealed long-dreaded nicknames shouldn't critique others...besides, I was writing that epistle whilst waiting on bookstore customers; a few connecting words are going to go astray. I try & use the correct word for my thought, sorry if you find that obfuscatory (hee hee). I didn't mean for my comments to come off as a critique exactly....afterall it's not your fault that my vocabulary is somewhat limitted compared to the norm (and especially compared to certain Canadadian posters and/or Engineers...etc...) I guess I just don't have the plethora of words at my disposal that you do when it comes to articulating my cornicopia of complex thoughts.... Newmastersswimmer p.s. obfuscatory??.....that is one of the most obtustitory excuses for a word I think I've ever heard...LOL!!.....(Note that "obtustitory" is in fact only a sniglet......it's my way of keeping up with the Jones' so to speak).