There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
And by saying that citizenship is paperwork I meant to say that there is a fine line between a foreigner and a citizen here, because today you can be a foreigner(still believing in America's ideas) and tomorrow a citizen...
As long as you continue to believe citizenship is a piece of paper and the line between an foreigner and a citizen is a fine one, you will never be a true American or understand what being a citizen is all about.
And, you don't have to support the war but our troops are there fighting for us. That's what you don't get about being a citizen.
John Smith:
You make some valid points, however realistically its never going to change. Why, you ask. Because the NCAA across all sports would have to limit or eliminate foreign scholarships and I don't see that happening. In basketball, because of the NBA it might not be as damaging, but in other sports they have the same problems. The NCAA main purpose is inter collegiate competition and that means recruiting the best athletes available regardless of where they are from. Every great famous NCAA coach has recruited foreign swimmers and this has been going on for over 50 years. Recently there has been a resentment over this and rightly so but because of the limited number of scholarships. I don't think a college coach would rather give a schlorship to a foreigner than an American kid, but because of the cutbacks in swimming, they will recruit the best they can get and if he is foreign so be it.
The NCAA makes it perfectly clear in there TV ads that the purpose of college athletics is train that person to be well rounded in the world and not just be a stamping ground for athletics. In fact, last night during the NBA finals game I saw a commerical with Coach K of Duke explaining what coaching at the
NCAA level means and the mission is not professional athletics.
As long as the NCAA allows it, and the coaches participate in doing it, then it will never change. Actually, I don't how you would be able to change it. When this started some 60 years ago, there were no limits on scholarships and there was not as many foreign swimmers in this country going to school and training here.
Coaches have done this for years and have never given second thoughts about it. At the 1960 Olympics in Rome, USC had nine swimmers and of those six were from countries other than the USA. In the 400 Free, all three medalists were USC swimmers, and not one of them was American. Because this has been common so long, I don't believe it will change.
I also think you have to look at the countries of where the swimmers are coming from. Take South Africa for instance, for years they did not even send anyone to the Olympics because of there political policies. Jonny Skinner couldn't go to the Olympics, even if he wanted to swim for anybody, for fear of his family might be punished because they had a policy of not sending anyone to the Olympics. Because of this history, that country is way behind in developing swimming. Frank Busch said the reason Roland Schoeman attended U of Arizona was because there were not any college programs there to match his talents and if he did not train here in the USA, he would not have continued his swimming. He would have gotten an education but without the means to continue his swimming. He couldn't make the committment because of the lack of funding.
I see the same thing with a country like Zimbabwe and Trinidad & Tobago. The swimmers from those countries don't exactly have colleges, coaches, facilities, and national funding to compete on a level playing field. So college coaches go out and recruit and try to make these swimmers the best they can be.
Is this a benefit to USA Swimming? I say yes for several reasons. It makes for better competition in workouts and meets. It also opens up for a wider range of competition. If all of these people swam for the USA, we wouldn't have as many of our own citizens swimming in the Olympics. It also helps swimming in the sense that the Olympics and World Championships are more competitive and you see better swimming performances from people all around the world.
Also its been quoted that it helps Americans. Greg Troy, who is the coach of Ryan Lochte, said he benefited immensely from practicing with Brazilian Olympians and former Florida swimmers.
He said they help raise the level and American swimmers know that, and I've never seen any resistance on their part.
The detriment to USA Swimming is the lack of scholarships for USA citizens and the decrease in medals at the Olympics. But as long as the NCAA allows it, and the coaches don't change then I believe it will never change. To quote Frank Busch, coach of Univ. of Arizona, "A lot of people complain about giving opportunities to people outside the country. You have to look past that. When you give opportunities, you get opportunities in return."
Tom Ellison is dead on. If you want a college scholarship from an American University, show commitment and get citizenship. Otherwise pay your own way to the school and swim as a walk-on. US dollars should go to US citizens who will utlimately represent the US in the Olympics AGAINST other athletes from other countries. I'm sick of the US training other countries athletes to kick our own asses on the world stage. The days are over when the US ruled every event in the Olympics like the 1970s. We need to take these countries "down" in Bejing in the 400 free relay. We don't need to stab ourselves in the back and show them how to beat us at our best game.
Better yet.... how about a "thank you" or acknowledgment from the South African relay for their coaching and training in the US after they won their gold medal......... I heard nothing in 2004 from any foreign athlete that trained in the US in terms of thanks or appreciation for a concious decision to leave their own country for something better in the US.
Fact is, most coaches pull in international talent because they fail on the US domestic front in terms of their recruiting endeavors. Ande is right... Eddie Reese has rarely if ever given US money to foreigner swimmers. Why train the enemy that you'll end up facing every 4 years? It's ludicrous !
US kids (and US citizens) should get US money. Foreigners can come swim and join us if they want to in lane 8, but do it on their own dime. We're talking about athletics.... NOT academics here. Don't confuse the two. Competition and winning has NOTHING to do with a well rounded campus.
Sound selfish...... hah...... try winning the 400 free relay at the Olympics.
When you hit the water representing your country, it's a war.
John Smith
*TIME OUT*
We interrupt this cable TV debate for a short commercial.
I would like to thank JustforFun for providing this board with a very lively, spirited debate, that at least most of us seem to be enjoying.
You're right; everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I, for one, enjoy seeing what other opinions there are besides my own.
Things in my life have been rather sh*tcanned right now. You have all provided me with some much-needed distraction and entertainment this week. I thank you for that.
Okay, back to the debate. In the words of the famous Mr. Moose/Ralph/Tom (now wearing the pink moose suit, I imagine):
"NEXT"................:D
Aquageek:
Look.... you're talking to a raving liberal democrat. Don't even try to preach to me about the goodness of extending the niceties of our economy and lifestyle (including sharing taxes !) with aliens.... or shall I more nicely refer to them as foreigners.
As for athletes thanking someone post performance, Hell, I'd be impressed if the South Africans just thanked their American coach on TV to acknowledge their US presence.... no such luck...... it was a pure and righteous South African victory all on there own, based on the talent, facilities and coaching skills of South Africa.
The issue isn't about being nice to your fellow international man when you are competing in athletics. That stuff is off the pool deck. Athletics at an NCAA division I level or US Sr. Nationals level is measured ultimately by how much you improve, how you can kick ass, and how close you get to 1st place..... not last place. These qualities don't always square with the goals and priorities of academic life and teh so called sharing of the "American dream". Foreigners are free to attend schools in the US. Don't make my son go to his 2nd best college choice because they ran out of scholarship money because english is a practically a second language in the lockeroom.
If we were competing against Mars and Jupiter, I'd invite all the greatest talent in the globe to the US to train and give them lots of scholarship money and general bribery..... Such is not the case.
Look.... you go train with your enemies and make them better and better. I'll go train just with the people who will ultimately be on the relay that represents my country. We'll see who fairs best in the end.
Oh yeah........ you think sports is a cakewalk? ....... try training in Phelps lane for a few weeks....... let alone try to beat him.
John Smith
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
I mean you want to be all fair but close your eyes on America "buying out" the best "brains" in different fields for its own economical growth.
...So America is using the rest of the world pretty darn well(which I have to admit is very smart!!!), so let's not talk about what's fair and what's not!And besides - NCAA would be nothing and would not draw as much attention if you couldn't recruit the best of the best!
OK hear is my 2 cents...
If we did not have an international representation in the States than the Ivy League in New England/Big Universities would loose a big percentages of the great minds at these institutions.
Our swimming program has been awesome for so long that it's a sign of our greatness as a swimming superpower --Russian and China are teaming up to go against the US at the next Olympics... per a swimming article off the USA Swimming web site, and Australia is our major competition after "The Berlin Wall" has gone down in GDR and drugs testing has increased so fast.
We are a very rich country and we LOVE that about ourselves --generally speaking that is. It takes a lot courage to go somewhere else to live, go to school, or train. It says a lot about how we are perceived by others and our lifestyle.
If non American student athletes are receiving scholarships for American universities that are funded by public dollars then there maybe an argument about that. However, private schools can and usually do, spend scholarship monies on who/how they see fit. There is no problem in my view with this practice. It may not be just about the swimming program, but other (albeit political) reasons not to exclude kids studying their butts off or swimming there butts off to get into an American college or university.
Finally, going back to a really simplistic and elementary ideal: Are we all not immigrants and that is the backbone of how this county works?
Lainey writes: "Scholarship money, whether it is academic or athletic, should go to Americans first. If there is money left over, or perhaps as Rob suggested a small percentage of all scholarship money, should be offered to foreign students.
Why? What is so magical about being "American?" Other than for those who moved here and were naturalized isn't it just really an accident of birth? Why draw artificail boundaries?
Here is an example of how arbitrary and silly it is . . . .
In 1920, my dad was born in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. His dad, an American citizen, and child of Norwegian immigrants, moved to Canada to serve in the Canadian Navy to fight in World War I. He did so before America got involved because he thought it was the right thing to do while Wilson pursued an isolationist/pacifist strategy that ultimately failed.
So my dad was born Canadian. His family moved to Boston in the late 20's. My dad grew up in the U.S. and then joined the U.S. Navy, fought in WW II and was granted citizenship after fighting in the Pacific as an Aviation Machinist's Mate First Class and serving as a flight engineer on PBYs.
So all of this "American's First" rhetoric kind of pisses me off. My dad, as a Canadian citizen, was an all state tackle (both ways) at Boston's Weymouth High in '37 and '38 who was offered a full ride football scholarship to Boston University. He didn't take it as it was the depression and he needed to go to work to help support his family. Then, still as a Canadian citizen, he joined the U.S. Navy and fought in the Pacific theatre to preserve democracy for the world . . . and to defeat despots . . . for the world . . .
So who among you thinks that in offering my dad a football scholarship Boston Univeristy was out of line by not serving "American's first?"
So think about that before you adopt the knee jerk "american's first" attitude . . . we are all citizens of the world . . . where we live, and the citizenship we enjoy, is for most of us an accident of birth. The real question is "are we making the world a better place?" Are we contributing? I have to think that spending time erecting walls and creating boundaries is wasted. It's tearing them down that makes the world a better place to live. I want to know why citizens of the country that was the primary force in tearing down the Berlin Wall would want to expend energy in building walls within our own boundaries.
Reasonable people can disagree . . . regardless, I hope that some find this food for thought,
carl
Aquageek:
Train in a top 5 division I school for a few weeks and tell me if you still think sports is a lovely leisure time activity. I can assure you that 14,000+ a day plus weights is closer to a prisoner of war sentence than you might think.
For you to say that it would be far fetched for my son to be turned down from his 1st choice school because of a forienger is far fetched represents how little you know about the limited number of scholarships that NCAA mens swimming. It's a joke how few there are available.
Let me help you a bit..... simply total the number of foreign athletes at NCAA Div1 championships. That's at least how many scholarships that could have gone to US other citizens. Most of the top NCAA Div. I athletes are on a full ride or something close to it.
Try to twist my words... you will not. I never said anything about not letting foriegners go to our schools or crap about "protecting our borders". I said I dont want to better their training and abilities in athletics at our own expense. It's suicidal.
John Smith
