There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Actually it is changing...........this fall the NCAA has adopted new guidlines regarding the amount of foreign scholorships........I'll update the details later.
As for all the "yelling" and passion on this thread it seems to be completely out of contest as certain folks have tried to steer the issue away from "scholorships for foreign swimmers" to: diversity, immigration, racism, war...............!!
Give me a break...........tell me of one US Swimmer on a full ride scholoraship in ANY sport in France? OK, how about Japan? No, well how about Mexico? Egypt? What about Russia? Come on......any sport?
I'm for "diversity", I'm pro "legal" immigration, what I am not is happy about any US tax dollars supporting any college sports program that pays the way for a foeighn athelte when there may be even ONE US swimmer who could have it.
By the way, for all you idiots talking about politics on this thread and whining about "anti-immigration/anit-foreigner"......tell me of any other country in the world that you can cross into illegally and; work? get health care? education?
Fair is fair.........
Well, Knowing me by now on this discussion board.....I feel an obligation to add my two cents worth here (it's such a lively debate and all!)....only this time it's very brief.....I hate to have to admit this...but I am in 100% agreement with both the Moose Man and the GoodSmith on this one......And GoodSmith is a liberal Democrat too huh?.....What?....Stop it!.....Your ruining that Evil ex UT Swimmer image for me that I was getting so attached to around here!
Newmastersswimmer
You've obviously been a real tough competitor in the pool in the past. Sounds like you've trained with the "best of the best" and have enjoyed your liesurely sport tremendously.... :-)
I commend you on your overall knowledge of competitive collegiate swimming sir.
John Smith
I for one am getting sick and tired of this attitude so many have taken since 911 (I guess?)....where people have to take such simple innocent metaphors like comparing sports contests to War so literally.....Please lighten up.....You sound like Jerry Faldwell over there preaching that garbage...So he said the 400 free relay at the Olympics was war.....what's the big deal.....Why do people like you (i.e. geek) then have to remind us what "real war" is all about?....I think we have some idea of the difference between real war and a competitive war such as in a sports setting....GEEZ!....Nobody ever got so wound up before 911 and Iraq about such a simple metaphor.......Enough is Enough already!!
Newmastersswimmer
You are finally getting it. Why do you think people retire from the sport of swimming?......... they get burnt out. I left that type of incredible training regime in 1984. Now I swim for fun.... I grew tired of it the last part of my career. It's beyond work, it's a lifestyle and full commitment. Unless you've put in that kind of yardage year after year, you can never really know how tiring it is.
Masters swimming is great. It' not about how FAST you are, it's more about how FAT your are.... :-)
And... I do still abuse my old friends about their alma matters having foreigners on their team scoring points at NCAAs........ (a National Collegiate Championship.... not an international collegiate championship).
John Smith
Let's take everything everyone said and totally twist and turn it. Is going to college on a full ride awesome? Yes. Is swimming for a D I program, easy? Not really. It's a lot of hard work. Is it great that these kids get to do something they love? Yeah. Ask them all how much they love it when there alarms are going off at 4:30 or they can't go out partying b/c they are too tired or in taper. There are sacrifices made for being a D-I athlete. Is it worth it? I'll bet the vast majority of them would say yes. Is it really equivolent to being a POW, no of course not. But that was said for dramatic effect.
I'm really torn on how I feel about foreign citizens getting scholarships. But I also understand that the big time programs (UT, Arizona, Auburn, USC, etc.) have a lot of pressure to win NCAAs and produce Olympians or whatever. It makes a program more prestigious if Olympians train there regardless of what country they swim for. The more prestige a program can gather the more top US athletes it can recruit. There may not be a lot of scholarships offered but how many Brendan Hansens are out there that you can NCAA championships out of four years running AND will stay in the program for four years. Most of the cream of the crop leave at some point (Beard, Peirsol, Sandeno, etc) for endorsements, you bet your butt that they are making more as pro swimmers than they will pay out for their educations.
Additionally, it does make the US swimmers better. They are training along side not only some of the best swimmers in the US but also some of the best swimmers in the world.
I know there are coaches for various sports that will not recruit foreign atheltes, too.
One could argue that our society long ago lost any sense of perspective when it comes to sports. So how can we fault our college and universities for recruiting foreign athletes in an effort to assemble championship teams? Personally, I do believe that a state university has a reponsibility to the tax paying citizens of that state (which is why in-state tuition is much lower and there are quotas for out-of-state students). Private institutions are another matter.
Dude,
I am very sorry about the horrors of war...don't get me wrong...Its just that sports is war type metaphors use to be fairly commonplace in sports writing and other related mediums....People didn't get so bent out of shape about that before ....even after Vietnam and WWII.....I think people are taking metaphors like that WAY to seriously....I for one just don't see them as being so politically incorrect IMHO.......People need to lighten up a little these days!
Newmastersswimmer
Swim practice can be gruelling.....and so some people will use metaphors like "prison camp" to describe it since we tend to grab at extremes like that to make colorful comparisons.....My coach growing up would use metaphors like that all of the time.....I understand that there are some horrible and unfortunate circumstances right now for soldiers around the world....I have the utmost respect for the young men and women serving in the military....It's gotta be very tough over there indeed!!!.....Even so, I don't think it is necessary for the general public to then become so hyper-sensitive over these kinda word choices when they have been accepted as o.k. for so many years (in the proper context that they are generally intended to be taken in).....I do understand that people have sensitive feelings however about war in general...especially these days......I think people should think of these sports/war type metaphors more in terms ot the context you yourself mentioned...something on the order of physical training and pushing yourself to beat your competitor.....without taking it as a "literal" comparison between sports competition and the life and death type competition associated to a real war ...thats all. Anyway....lets just leave it at that b/c I don't really want to say anything else about it....I hope you and others haven't taken too much offense to my views on the subject....I apologize to anyone that may have been offended by my remarks.
Newmastersswimmer
Frank,
I fully realize that things will not change. I am in no position of clout to make them change either.
I have no objections to foreigners training and competing in the US. My objection is one of cash flow. Sure it's great to have a fast foreigner to workout against to make you and him better at the same time. Bring everyone over if they can afford to come. Fine with me.
What I object to is inducing this behavior with American scholarship money at the expense of the kids that have worked hard and paid a price here in the States.
If the NCAA would get off its butt and give swimming 25 -30 scholarships/team to play with my argument would probably fall to pieces. But thats not going to happen either.
John Smith
