There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Former Member
Quite frankly, you're DEAD WRONG on your tier two agrument. The best talent from abroad is NEVER worth giving money to compared to consolation heat caliber swimmers (tier II) that are home grown. Foreigners are free to come workout and swim at universities on their own dime. We should NEVER pay them over our own home grown boys. I am shocked at your response.
John, as a very wise but fast swimmer once told me on this forum:
"Dude, you take this question far too seriously!"
Anyway, I doubt you can name *dozens* of un scholarship swimmers who have made the finals of the US Olympic trials. (We are talking about international caliber swimming here, not one country's competition of swimmers between the age of 19 and 22, in a course swum no where else in the world.)
Oh sure, you may find a couple of late bloomers, but it takes a good judge of talent to see a 22 second high school swimmer and let him swim (with no scholarship). Would he have had a scholarship if foreigners weren't allowed?
I think it is the difference between the generous and the miserly of spirit. I see foreign scholarship as an opportunity to help the foreign swimmers, and international swimming, and the better US swimmers, and NCAA competition. You see it as helping foreign swimmers (which is bad, I guess.)
Frankly, NCAA consolation heat swimmers whould have been better off studying more than spending 5 hours a day in the pool and weight room. I don't think full swimming scholarships help them any. Scholarships based on academics or need would be better.
Former Member
C'mon, Geek. Tim Duncan was born on St. Croix in the U.S. Virgin Islands, a United States territory. Anyway, Wake Forest University, his alma mater, is private, so his athletic scholarship was not paid for with state tax dollars.
Originally posted by Paul Smith
Geek,
Not sure I agree, either we are declining or the rest of the world is catching up.......which isn't hard to do when you consider how many of their athletes we are training!
One thing for sure......if we are declinging we can take the Qatur route and start buying off some athletes that could help us out: Ferns, Schoeman, Hoogie...........
You really need to provide facts on this. How many of the 10K athletes in the last Olympics did the US train? And, how does that number compare to previous years? And, what again is your opposition to US elite athletes training day in and day out with elite world atheletes? How exactly does that hurt us?
And, I assume you are excluding Lenny Krazelburg (apologies on spelling) from your whole argument, right? Tim Duncan? It's not like the US doesn't do it.
Former Member
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
Frankly, NCAA consolation heat swimmers would have been better off studying more than spending 5 hours a day in the pool and weight room.
I didn't even qualify for NCAAs--I probably should have studied more, too. However, I have qualified for USMS Nationals, so maybe it was worth it after all.
Former Member
There are many really good swimmers at small private schools that could very possibly get a lot better if they had the coaching provided at big schools. Meets aren't won by only getting first place finishes!
Former Member
Originally posted by Paul Smith
One thing for sure......if we are declinging we can take the Qatur route and start buying off some athletes that could help us out: Ferns, Schoeman, Hoogie...........
Isn't that how this whole thing started? In essence wouldn't y'all agree that is what many of our college programs are doing today?
A scholarship and the opportunity to train and compete here is in essence "buying off some athletes that could help us out" (us being the respective college program) which is to the detriment to the US swimming development. 9.9 scholarships is a ludicrous number in itself. If college coaches want to use that miniscule number on foreign athletes just to help out their programs then shame on them.
If alumni want to support a foreign contingency to "help out" their program fine, but I am firmly in the camp that we are ruining this sport and others as well by using these NCAA sanctioned scholarships to help out programs.
Kudos to programs like Texas and Stanford (as well as many minor programs) for holding themselves to a higher standard. I am sure they would have had a legitimate shot at Fred Buckets, but they chose Wildeman-Tobriner and Weber-Gale. Did it cost them a potential NCAA title? Maybe, but standards are standards...
Former Member
Geek,
There is no difference between us paying foreign athletes without citizenship rare scholarship dollars to swim in the US and other foreign athletes selling their abilities to random countries like Qatar.
It's all crap. As far as I am concerned foreigners can train in the US on their own dime all they want. Handing out money to them to induce them to come is merely insult to injury.
If I were King, the NCAA would look a lot different.
John Smith
Mr. Goodsmith:
"May I remind you of the incident in the 1988 Olympics when several members of the men's team were immediatly instructed to pack their bags and go home because of their "conduct" violations there." What incident are you referring to? Honest I can't remember anything several members did that were conduct violations.
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
a couple of young americans out drinking and making a bad decision vs. a conscious decision to not show up to support Team USA because of being mad you didn't get selected to swim the finals on the relay.
Isn't drinking too much a conscious decision?