There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
My opinion, since you have requested it and apparently like me in a cage, is that it's absolutely ridiculous for all you folks to be obsessed by something Hall did a few years ago. From where I swim, he's fantastic in my book and I'll overlook this in favor of the good he's doing.
I mean, we have one guy or gal named Buffalo who has disowned Hall and others who feel drunken larceny is not as bad. I've been known to drunken buffoon from time to time, on the other hand.
some thoughts/opinions:
- John & Sam, you sound like a couple of cranky old ladies and have seriously hijacked this thread; settle it in the pool, may I suggest you two go for cumulative time for the 50, 100 & 200 back in Coral Springs?!
- Bad behavior? Gary was out of line as were the two idiots in Seoul.......but neither compares to the contiuning antics we see every four years of our lovely mens track team!! Bottom line is if its not going to be enforced by the coaching staff and/or the USOC then we live with it.
- Geek....thought you we're posting from the NC pen this whole time, at least thats what Gull told us!
- Sam......come on dude, you and Killen both share the same "hat" and JS called you on it!!
"Gimbutis is Latest Swimmer Pursued by Qatar -- December 15, 2005
BERKELEY, California, December 16. THE wildfire that Qatar has ignited in its recruitment of top-flight athletes could be spreading following a report in the Lithuanian newspaper, The Lietuvos Rytas. According the newspaper report, Rolandas Gimbutis is on the cusp of accepting a lucrative offer to swim for Qatar, which recently acquired the services of Croatian Duje Draganja.
A two-time Olympic sprinter who trains at the University of California under the tutelage of Mike Bottom, Gimbutis has reportedly been offered $10,000 per month to represent Qatar. The 24-year-old has apparently given a verbal acceptance to the offer and could soon sign a deal. Gimbutis’ father discussed the advantages of accepting the offer in the newspaper story. "
Maybe Qatar should hire Mike Bottom as their head swim coach--they may be two Berkeley swimmers away from a relay medal.
Originally posted by ande
gary's olympic dominance, it's true he won the 50 free
but only by 1/100th of a second.
I'll be surprised if he wins in 2008.
Granted Gary's one of the most talented swimmers who's ever graced our sport, but I believe he didn't swim as fast as he could have if he trained harder and more consistently and that's the shame of it.
ande
I don't care what his MARGIN of victory is gold medals are gold medals. Also, don't believe everything you read about Gary's training. I watched him and the sprint team train in 2000. Although their methods were unique to say the least, they trained to race and race only. Gary is the best RACER I have seen in my lifetime. When it matters, he is ready to go. I also know that as he has aged and dealt with Type II Diabetes, so who knows how hard he can actually train due to his illness.
Like it or not (and I don't because I don't have his talent!), he has dominated at the highest level of our sport for many years now. I don't care what "the margin of victory" was.
To state he could go faster if he trained harder is complete hyperbole.
Originally posted by BillS
Sam, John, et. al.:
Referring to a fine swimmer like Mr. Bousquet as "Freddie Biscuits" or "Fred Buckets" diminishes your otherwise valid arguments.
The central point of debate is whether the folks in charge of handing out swimming scholarships should limit the award of them, or at least accord preference to, US athletes. A foreign athlete has no control over the mechanics of our scholarship process. I think most of us here would argue that the US offers the finest combination of educational and sporting opportunities in the world. It is the rare foreign athlete who would turn down a full ride at a program like Auburn's. Demeaning a great athlete does not help make your point.
In a debate, always look for the high road, and avoid the cheap shot. Your argument will be more effective for it.
Lighten up. I didn't know how to correctly spell his name and MS doesn't have a spell check for Bousquet!
If referring to someone as a lighthearted JOKE diminishes what they have accomplished, then we all are guilty of that at sometime or other in our life. Give me a break...
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Sam and Phil,
We have obviously grown up on two different sides of the swimming planet.
You quote.....
"Frankly, NCAA consolation heat swimmers whould have been better off studying more than spending 5 hours a day in the pool and weight room. "
is pretty stunning if you think about it. To imply that only the top 2 or 3 in each event should seriously continue to pursue their careers in college and receive full scholarship ..... well.... it's almost amusing. We're so far apart on this topic it's not worth getting into.
As for White Buffalo...... well...... he's certainly brash. (I keep thinking I'm the most irritating personality in masters swimming but I keep getting passed) You can not deny Gary's athletecism and talent in the water..... and I don't think white buffalo has ever said that Gary wasn't gifted or impressive in the pool. His point was conduct..... more specifically....... "code of conduct". May I remind you of the incident in the 1988 Olympics when several members of the men's team were immediatly instructed to pack their bags and go home because of their "conduct" violations there. Fortunately for Gary he was not sent home after he made his violation. I don't know that I have ever heard him apologize for this violation in Greece either.... correct me if I'm wrong though. Gary is a phenom in the pool .... no doubt about it. We're talking about a man who as I remember broke 1:34 in the 200yd free early on at school..... incredibly talented and strong. However, I admit I have a hard time reconciling Gary's swimming success with what appeared to be self centered behavior and negative and distracting media attention at Greece.
If you read my statement, I clearly stated I didn't agree with his actions, which I don't. To compare that to what happened in 1988 is stretching it in my opinion. They were alleged to have partaken in something illegal. Last time I looked I don't think there is a law against wearing a robe or missing a relay. Again, what he did was wrong in my opinion, but Gary is his own person. I don't think he ever apologized for his actions (what good would that do anyway), but I think if drilled deeper with him, he would admith he didn't handle the situation in the best way.
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
Sam and Phil,
We have obviously grown up on two different sides of the swimming planet.
You quote.....
"Frankly, NCAA consolation heat swimmers whould have been better off studying more than spending 5 hours a day in the pool and weight room. "
is pretty stunning if you think about it. To imply that only the top 2 or 3 in each event should seriously continue to pursue their careers in college and receive full scholarship ..... well.... it's almost amusing. We're so far apart on this topic it's not worth getting into.
As for White Buffalo...... well...... he's certainly brash. (I keep thinking I'm the most irritating personality in masters swimming but I keep getting passed) You can not deny Gary's athletecism and talent in the water..... and I don't think white buffalo has ever said that Gary wasn't gifted or impressive in the pool. His point was conduct..... more specifically....... "code of conduct". May I remind you of the incident in the 1988 Olympics when several members of the men's team were immediatly instructed to pack their bags and go home because of their "conduct" violations there. Fortunately for Gary he was not sent home after he made his violation. I don't know that I have ever heard him apologize for this violation in Greece either.... correct me if I'm wrong though. Gary is a phenom in the pool .... no doubt about it. We're talking about a man who as I remember broke 1:34 in the 200yd free early on at school..... incredibly talented and strong. However, I admit I have a hard time reconciling Gary's swimming success with what appeared to be self centered behavior and negative and distracting media attention at Greece.
If you read my statement, I clearly stated I didn't agree with his actions, which I don't. To compare that to what happened in 1988 is stretching it in my opinion. They were alleged to have partaken in something illegal. Last time I looked I don't think there is a law against wearing a robe or missing a relay. Again, what he did was wrong in my opinion, but Gary is his own person. I don't think he ever apologized for his actions (what good would that do anyway), but I think if drilled deeper with him, he would admit he didn't handle the situation in the best way.
Sam,
What's worse..... ?
1. Being sent home because you took a local statue or artifact after drinking.
or
2. Not showing up to watch and support your own teamates swim.
Come on Sam.... what is it you usually say....... "you're all hat and no cattle" on this issue...... a couple of young americans out drinking and making a bad decision vs. a conscious decision to not show up to support Team USA because of being mad you didn't get selected to swim the finals on the relay.
John Smith
They're both bad actually.
Geek... if you'd like to play then feel free to offer a credible opinion to our discussion (i.e. argument)....... otherwise, continue flapping your wings in your cage and pretend you're being noticed.
John Smith
It's about what is LEGAL and what isn't. Last time I looked at the penal code, theft of artifacts was considered illegal. Again, I don't agree with what Gary did. If you want to blame someone, blame Coach Reese for NOT sending Gary home. Don't blame Gary... (All hat no cattle is definetly a great phrase, but I have NO idea what it has to do with this.)
