There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Former Member
This is certainly an interesting thread and I regret that I won't be around until Sunday to follow it. However, I don't regret it that much since I will be running the timing console for a big meet my DGD's team is hosting. Good swims and fast times to all of the athletes!
Originally posted by Paul Smith
- aquageek; read my message and answer any of the questons that I raised. Happy to go into detail with you on my politics one to one anytime. When those same countries that pay US taxes start offering full ride swimming scholorships to US citizens then I'll be open to returning the favor here.
What about foreign corps that give millions to endowments or build a department building or fund a professorship? Would that be ok by your standards or would they just have to fund a simple swimming scholarship? Also, I'm not aware of any corporations, US or otherwise, that are allowed to fund individual sports scholarships. If a US company does a lot of business overseas maybe we should exclude them also since they could do so much more here if they cut back their business model and were less profitable.
Yay on the U of I being sited in that article on winning Men's tennis without foreign talent. However, I believe our men's tennis coach is now leaving to coach the Australian tennis team.
My understanding on swimming scholarships are, if you are a swimmer of Olympic caliber, you will get a good scholarship, regardless of Nationality. The lesser swimmers(which would be the 99.9% of the rest of them), don't usually get full rides. Colleges piecemeal out the scholarships to get more athletes on scholarships for the minor sports.
I am actually surprised at the number of small colleges sending us information on their swim programs. My son is not swimming anymore, so he is not really looking at them, but he probably could walk on to some of these schools and do well if he wanted to.
He will pick the school based on what is right for his life, not the swimming. A scholarship would be nice, but we don't count on it. They say if you are in swimming for the scholarships, you would be better of taking all the money you spend on your child's swimming from age group up and saving it for college.
Everyone on this thread should read the Christian Science Monitor article linked by Frank Thompson. Thanks Frank!!! Here it is in its entirety . . . you may recognize our debate within this well presented piece:
America's best collegiate athletes often not American
By Christa Farrand Case | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
When swimmer Ryk Neethling powered South Africa's Olympic relay team to an unprecedented gold medal in Athens last summer, the Americans were surprised, to say the least. Except for US assistant coach Frank Busch.
"We'd talked about it for a long time.... Emotionally, it was an incredible experience," he recalls.
As a teenager, Mr. Neethling had been recruited by Mr. Busch to attend the University of Arizona, where he competed on a generous scholarship - courtesy of the state's taxpayers. In fact, with three of South Africa's four relay medalists having attended Arizona, the school could go into the business of franchising global Olympic athletes.
In some ways, they already have - and they're not alone.
For decades, foreign athletes have come to the US to train and bolster American university teams, boosting the level of competition and bringing Yankee jocks shoulder to shoulder with multiculturalism. But now, with nearly $1 billion to spend in scholarship money and growing pressure to field winning teams, schools are increasingly filling their rosters with foreign athletes.
The trend is fueling a debate about whether taxpayer-funded collegiate programs are developing international talent at the expense of aspiring American athletes - not to mention America's Olympic hopes.
"I think that's something we need to be concerned about," says Chuck Wielgus, executive director of USA Swimming, a governing organization. He points out that at last year's National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Division I swimming championships, foreign athletes constituted 40 percent of the field. He's worried that the prevalence of foreign athletes means fewer scholarships for Americans - a crucial incentive for talented high schoolers to stay in the pool.
But it's not just swimming that's affected. Nearly one-third of NCAA ice hockey and tennis athletes last season were not American. In other sports, the percentage of foreign athletes is lower, but they're concentrated at the top. Of the 20 "All-Americans" in the final event of this month's NCAA skiing championship, for example, only six were American.
Zachary Violett, a cross-country skier who didn't make that half-dozen, would like to think he'd have pocketed at least three NCAA championships by now if it weren't for the Europeans that dominate his sport. At last year's event, he finished fourth behind three Norwegians.
Is that frustrating? "Well, I like to about it, but it's great having people to chase," says Mr. Violett, who emphasizes how much he's improved by skiing head-to-head with the Europeans.
Most of them compete for schools that wouldn't even consider Violett when he was applying to colleges, and certainly didn't offer him the full-ride scholarship the "Euros" enjoy.
Not to be defeated, Violett reverse- engineered the process: He went to a ski gymnasium in Gielo, Norway, where he trained "nonstop" and worked late nights in a restaurant to make ends meet. Now a senior with a full scholarship at the University of Alaska, Anchorage, Violett lives with his Norwegian and German teammates.
A quiet revolt
But not everyone is content to accept the situation as is. On Internet message boards, everyone from ex-soccer players to track stars gripes about the problem, while coaches across the country complain from the sidelines.
Pressured to produce the best teams, some feel the only way to win is to follow suit and recruit more aggressively overseas, compounding the problem.
One of the most foreign-flavored - and difficult to change - sports may be men's tennis. Last year, 63 of the top 100 ranked collegiate players were foreigners, many of whom came in as 22-year-old freshmen with several years experience on the European pro circuit.
That didn't dissuade University of Illinois coach Craig Tiley, who made a conscious commitment when he took on the job in 1993 to develop American players, rather than importing ready-made European stars. In 2003, Mr. Tiley's team won the NCAA championship without a single foreign player.
While Tiley, Wielgus, and others chafe at lost slots and scholarships for US athletes, others point to the qualitative benefits foreign athletes bring to a team - and to the classroom.
"They raise the level of appreciation, expectations, and global perspective" of their teammates, says Lance Harter, who coached four-time Olympic track medalist Veronica Campbell of Jamaica at the University of Arkansas. They also appreciate the educational opportunities they have in the US and are often some of the best students, says Kyle Kallander, chair of the NCAA's Olympic Liaison Committee.
For some talented foreigners, athletic accomplishments are the ticket to a virtually free education at some of America's top universities.
Moreover, as Jeff Howard, director of corporate communications for the United States Olympic Committee (USOC), points out: "The United States is a country built upon welcoming people from around the world, and our institutions have benefited from that principle."
Ways to boost ranks of Americans
Still, both the USOC and the NCAA are aware of the concern and have talked about possible solutions. Mr. Kallander would like to explore ways to provide incentives for having more American students on any given team.
Wielgus, on the other hand, recommends putting a cap on the amount of scholarship money available for foreign students. Many coaches acknowledge that's a reasonable and sensible approach, says Wielgus, but few are willing to say so for fear of putting themselves at odds with their athletic departments, whose bottom line is to create the best possible team.
As Busch puts it: "Being an employee of the University of Arizona, my job is to field the best teams I can field, and whether that means recruiting a kid from Arizona or Australia, it really doesn't matter."
What is the concern, it's been going on since I was a kid. The colleges want their teams to be the best. All of my Canadian friends swam in the US. My brother for U of Maryland, Mike MacLaughlin U of Michigan. Gerry MacNamee USSC, and many others in every state. No scholaships were available in Canada.
Originally posted by gull80
Yes, lack of affordable health insurance is a significant problem for many Americans. That having been said, unlike other nations, we do not have waiting lists (six months or more) for bypass surgery or hip replacements. And no one can be turned away from an emergency room due to lack of money (federal law). If socialized medicine is the answer, why are other countries now exploring privitization? No waiting list in the USA but no one can afford an operation. If everyone who needed an operation were counted the lineups would be very long. I can see my doctor any time I want and don't pay.
Originally posted by Paul Smith
By the way, for all you idiots talking about politics on this thread and whining about "anti-immigration/anit-foreigner"......tell me of any other country in the world that you can cross into illegally and; work? get health care? education?
Fair is fair.........
Great way to communicate, Paul!!!let's call everyone idiots now , but who is the one who is really in the dark(can't use the same word, sorry, my upbringing is not letting me)?Well, let me tell you this:almost every more or less economically stable country has a problem with illegal immigration who FIND THE WAYS to work AND to study!!!Heck, even Russia(mostly Moscow, though) has a problem with illegals(an estimated 3mln. in just Moscow).So I suggest you do some research before you come with that kind of "info" next time...
Oh, yeah, and about health care - well, I think America needs to be able to figure out how to provide a good health care program to its citizens first...How many people are on the edge of bankrupcy because of "the perfect American healthcare"?Just so that you know in a lot of countries it is government funded and you will not be charged for being treated...
As I've Written before, of all the alies in this country permanently, the one most likely to be here illegally is a citizen of the UK. Some foreign companies do pay US taxes. Mitsubishi does and I think BP does now that they have bought gas stations. I believe any company listed on US stock exchanges must pay appropriate taxes also.
Also, US universities should never have to worry about how their program fits into US swimming. they should worry about how they aare educating its students. I believe the national average for all entering Freshmen to graduate is either 66% or 88%. I used to know the number but it has slipped my mind. then look at athletes and their graduation rate. Even swimmers have a relatively low ghrad rate. After all Cincinati one year graduated no athletic scholarship students, regardless of the sport and sex. I think the year was 1997 or 1999(?????).
OK, using the the word "idiot: was over the top and I aplogize. However some points of clarification:
- botterud: I did not use that as a reference to people who disagree with me, I'm used to that! f you take the time to read my post carefully before replying you would see that it was a reference to people who changed the thread from a discussion about scholorships for foreign swimmers to a one about anti immigration, racism, etc.
- aquageek; read my message and answer any of the questons that I raised. Happy to go into detail with you on my politics one to one anytime. When those same countries that pay US taxes start offering full ride swimming scholorships to US citizens then I'll be open to returning the favor here.
- hooked on swimming; again read my message carefully (did I call everyone an idiot?) and answer the questions I brought up. I never said anything about other countries not having illegal (research my message a little more carefully before you reply) immigration problems, however do any of them "subsidize" the problem in any way similar to the US? Does th University of Moscow provode swimming scholorships?
Point is this, there are "x" number of swimming programs at colleges in the US and fewer scholorships and I beleive that those should first and foremost go to US citizens. Other countries have scholorship prgrams to support their athletes swimming for US programs (we had mulitple French, Mexican & Swedish swimmers who swam for UCSB and all had their way paid by their governement).
