There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Former Member
I've read everyone else's posts with great interest. Here are my thoughts...
I have no problem with foreign swimmers training in the U.S., with U.S. coaches, and even attending U.S. Universities and competing at NCAA's. I don't believe, however, that we as U.S. citizens should be financially supporting them in these endeavors at the expense of other U.S. swimmers. The way I see it, this support happens in two ways: 1) U.S. tax dollars that support public institutions end up supporting athletic departments and hence, athletic scholarships; 2) other students who pay tuition at these schools (mostly U.S. citizens) end up supporting athletic scholarships for foreigners because tuition is part of the university's budget and makes its way into the athletic budget. It is extremely rare for an athletic department to be completely self-supporting by way of donations and athletic revenue. U.S taxpayers and those paying college tuition have no choice (they are forced) to support these foreign athletes. That's not right.
Here are a couple examples. Arizona has a men's roster of 24, 6 of whom are foreigners. That's 25% of the roster! I have no way of knowing who is receiving scholarships, but I think it's a safe assumption that more of the U.S. swimmers are walk-ons than the foreigners...the foreign swimmers wouldn't be there if they hadn't been recruited and put on scholarship? So, they're likely taking up close to 1/2 the athletic scholarships in that program.
California-Berkely has a men's roster of 33, 9 of whom are foreigners (if you count Milorad Cavic, whose hometown is listed as Anaheim, CA, but who represents another country in international competition). That's 27% of the roster. Again, they're likely taking up around 1/2 the athletic scholarships.
The idealistic solution, as stated by others, is to eliminate athletic scholarships all together. That way, those who simply want an education will still attend. Those who don't, won't. Foreigners who want to come here to train will pay their own way.
I understand the arguments about diversity, global economy, helping countries with less developed swimming programs, etc. But, we're not talking about charity here. Charity is voluntary. We're talking about providing opportunity for an education AND athletic competition. It makes no sense to me that U.S. citizens are forced to provide financial support for the training, coaching, etc. for athletes who intend to compete for another country in international competition. I doubt any other country in the world would consider doing this for a U.S. swimmer, unless he/she intended to compete for their country.
I would prefer that all tax- and tuition-supported athletic scholarships go to U.S. citizens. As this is probably unrealistic, I would support some cap (perhaps 10%), as Rob suggested.
To see the rosters I referred to, check out calbears.collegesports.com/.../cal-m-swim-mtt.html
and
www.arizonaathletics.com/SportSelect.dbml
Aquageek, you're extending what I said to encompass the entire public education system in the U.S. Don't generalize. I wasn't referring to poor or unemployed people in our country. I'm talking about non-U.S. citizens whose own countries have their own systems for providing education. Yes, presumably foreign swimmers attending U.S. universities on athletic scholarships receive an education here. But, I don't think it's a stretch to say they aren't here for the academics alone. Most of them are here to benefit from U.S. coaches and facilities in order to improve their swimming. For us to support that financially...yes, I consider it charity.
OK, so it seems that the positive attributes of diversity in a college student body isn't gettting much traction here, so let's try another approach . . .
If I'm a college swim coach, my goal is to win conference and win NCAAs. That type of success will provide me with greater job security, improved income, will help draw faster athletes to a winning program and will help attract alumni dollars, which will, in turn, help the program.
Soooo . . . . who am I going to give my scholarships to? The fastest swimmers and I don't give a rip where they're from. I'll take an NCAA championship breaststroker from the Ukraine over the guy/girl from Mission Viejo that will finish 8th. Because s/he swims for my U.S. based college s/he will be the National Collegiate Athletic Association champion. There are no citizenship requirements/restrictions to participate in NCAA sports.
When s/he particiapates in international meets where team association is determined by citizenship, s/he will represent the Ukraine. The fact that s/he trains and gets an athletic scholarship and good old "United States College" doesn't matter a whit because the goal of teams, whether college, club, or country based, is to win and to have the best and fastest athletes.
Now if the goal of United States collegiate swimming was to be a farm/development team for the U.S. National team, then people who would want to deny athletic scholarships to non-citizens might have a point . . . but that is NOT the goal of collegiate swimming is it?
I'm just sayin' . . .
carl
Geek:
The point you continue to make about educating people from other countries eventually benefitting us in the U.S. is well taken. I agree with almost everthing you say. But, you continue to give examples outside of the topic of giving swimming scholarships to foreign athletes. Perhaps a few of these individuals will receive an excellent education, go home and improve things in some way in their own countries, and eventually this will benefit the U.S. due to improved relations, trade, or some other fashion. Perhaps I'm too cynical in believing that all it really does is take scholarships away from U.S. swimmers and win medals for other countries.
What I wish you would respond to is the point that swimming scholarships are extremely scarce in the U.S. I might feel differently if each swimming program had 30 scholarships to give. I have no problem with foreign swimmers attending U.S. universities, getting an education, and competing at NCAA's. I just think that the vast majority (90% or more) of the available swimming scholarships should go to U.S. athletes. I don't think programs like Cal and Arizona should be able to give 1/2, more or less, away to non-U.S. citizens. What do you think?
Cal and Arizona should be able to give scholarships to the most deserving, qualified athletes consistent with NCAA rules, state and federal law, and the institutions' guidelines for delivery, whatever those rules, laws and guidelines may be . . . which do not appear to include citizenship as a determining factor.
Ultimately, it should be up the institutions and their respective constitiuencies (sp?) to make the call.
botterud--I'm not saying Cal or Arizona has broken any rules...they're doing exactly what you say, which is going out and getting the best talent regardless of the country of origin. They've been very successful doing it. I would rather see those coaches recuit promising U.S. athletes and develop them into elite swimmers! I think the rules should change.
nkace--I'm not sure if you're referring to anything I've said, but I don't think people have forgotten that the country is made up of immigrants. But, the immigrants became U.S. citizens! With a few exceptions, the foreign swimmers we're talking about here have not done that.
I don't think it's a holier-than-thou attitude to recognize that we've got some of the best facilities and coaches in the world and that others in the world want to take advantage of it.
"I sometimes can't stand this America is holy-er than thou routine-kind of sickening."
Gosh, I have not read that into these posts.....
For myself, Justforfun....and a few others ....the point it...USA, AMERICAN SWIMMERS have very few opportunities to get scholarships....so why on earth should our hard earned money be spent on scholarships for foreign swimmers while OUR swimmers go without....Dah…..
This has nothing to do with the USA being the best....or….. who founded our great nation....it has to do with common sense....Common sense for me dictates that I am going to make sure the kid next door or the kids on my son's swim team gets a scholarship to swim at a university or college funded by Americans…. before...giving that money to a foreign swimmer. Heck, where was that foreign swimmer and HIS countries support all the years that USA kid swam HERE IN THE USA....
Originally posted by aquageek
I'm a democrat.
BTW - I agreed with all your points. Dima was the one who felt US citizenship is just a piece of paper. Tell that to our troops in Iraq who are fighting for Dima.
Fighting for me?What a bunch of nonsense!!!I am the first one to say that I hate the whole war idea in general and war in Iraq makes no sense and kids dying there will not satisfy any "good intentions".Honestly, GEEK, you are so good turning tables around and blaiming(in this case me) everything on someone else.Honestly, all I hear here is:America is the best, we are the best, everyone else sucks, we can rule the world, we decide what we do...Sick!!!Why do you think America has such a reputation among other nations?I was not trying to bring down America by any means, I believe in this country and that is why I am here.IAnd by saying that citizenship is paperwork I meant to say that there is a fine line between a foreigner and a citizen here, because today you can be a foreigner(still believing in America's ideas) and tomorrow a citizen...So are those two different people?And as an immigrant I take offense to the whole "the rest of the world doesn't mean sh*t" kinda attitude, because then I think - well, why in the world did I come here if I'd be poked at as just a foreigner who came from somewhere else?Hey, ther's life outside of the US and actually very light and interesting in many countries, so let us not talk about them as just "the rest".How can you ask for respect if you don't give respect to others?
P.S. Well, enough of that, I am not going to argue, what is the point?I think I will find some other site to go to, 'cause I feel hostility here whenever I try to keep the face for other countries.Talk about hospitability and compassion mentioned here...Farewell to everyone!
