Breaststroke Rule Question

Tell us EXACTLY what you did on that turn.

Not sure, since I was not told what turn it was, but I probably started a pull and then windmilled into a short stroke without an intervening kick, a trick we used in the old days to have a fast finish?!?

Actually, to me more precise, I did a pull and then thrust my hands to the wall without a kick.

If you are DQed on similar grounds again, show the referee the rules and demand that he reverse his decision. If he refuses, use the protest procedures described in 102.16.3 and 102.16.4. Neither of those rules are applicable - it is rule 102.16.3 Protest against judgement decisions of starter, and stroke, turn, and relax takeoff judges can only be considered by the referee, and the referee's decision shall be final.. What has been described is a judgement call rule. The stroke and turn judge may have been unfamiliar with the rule and made a bad call, or he saw something you are not telling us. In any you or your coach should appeal to the the referee and hope for the best. michael

Thanks, guys. I think it was the referee who did the DQ and I think I spelled out the reason, but the whole thing was done so quickly and I was back in the water soon and then the referee made a quick exit that I can't be sure. But you can bet I will have the rulebook with me the next time and not let the referee get away!

Rule 102.16.3 does not say that any and every decision made by a referee is final. If that were true, the inclusion of rule 102.16.4 would make no sense. The referee's decision is final only on "judgment decisions" (which makes sense, because no one who didn't see the meet could possibly have any basis for overuling what a judge or referee thought he saw). If it happens in the water it is considered a judgement decision. This includes but is not limited to sections 101, 102.14, 102.15 and much of 103. There are many other parts of section one where there are interpetations of the rules- an example - how long does does a 25 meter course have to be to be legal is where 102.16.4 is applicable. michael

Rule 101.2.2 refers to a "complete cycle of one arm stroke and one leg kick, in that order". I gather that the referee was objecting to the fact that you did not complete your last stroke cycle before touching the wall. The trouble with this is that rule 101.2.4 clearly refers to the fact that the touch may be preceded by a "complete or incomplete stroke cycle". I might add that this is true not only under USMS rules, but also under USA Swimming rules, FINA rules, and NCAA rules. Unless your account of these incidents is incorrect, the calls were simply wrong. I would suggest that you print off a copy of the rules, and that in the future you bring it to your meets. If you are DQed on similar grounds again, show the referee the rules and demand that he reverse his decision. If he refuses, use the protest procedures described in 102.16.3 and 102.16.4.

Originally posted by michaelmoore Neither of those rules are applicable - it is rule 102.16.3 Protest against judgement decisions of starter, and stroke, turn, and relax takeoff judges can only be considered by the referee, and the referee's decision shall be final.. What has been described is a judgement call rule. The stroke and turn judge may have been unfamiliar with the rule and made a bad call, or he saw something you are not telling us. In any you or your coach should appeal to the the referee and hope for the best. I mentioned rule 102.16.3 for completeness. If the call was not made by the referee but by one of the judges under him, the referee could reverse the ruling. But if the referee will not reverse it, that's when you exercise rule 102.16.4. Rule 102.16.3 does not say that any and every decision made by a referee is final. If that were true, the inclusion of rule 102.16.4 would make no sense. The referee's decision is final only on "judgment decisions" (which makes sense, because no one who didn't see the meet could possibly have any basis for overuling what a judge or referee thought he saw). In these cases, what is in dispute is not a judgment decision. Bob is not disputing the referee's statement that he did not complete the last stroke before his turn. He is disputing whether that is a violation of the rules.

Originally posted by michaelmoore If it happens in the water it is considered a judgement decision. This includes but is not limited to sections 101, 102.14, 102.15 and much of 103. There are many other parts of section one where there are interpetations of the rules- an example - how long does does a 25 meter course have to be to be legal is where 102.16.4 is applicable. You may have some inside knowledge of this to which most of us are not privy, in which case I defer to you. I was basing my remarks on the actual wording of 102.16.4, which says that it applies to "interpretation of the rules in Part I: Swimming Rules and the Glossary" (which would include all of the stroke rules). If what you say is true, then a swimmer's best bet would be to confront the referee with a copy of the rules and gamble that he was honestly trying to be fair, but was simply mistaken about what the rules say. And, in that case, the referee presumably would amend his decision.

I suppose the language of the rules can be tightened up somewhat. There is no one that I know in USMS that is trying to keep any knowledge of the rules as special or secret, as there are many knowledgable people who will be on the forums to try to answer questions about the rules or how the rules are interpretated. Sometimes the rules are not as clear as they might seem. Today, one stroke and turn judge and I had a discussion about what constitutes a forward start. She wanted to dq a swimmer for his forward start. We reviewed the rules to see what exactly the rules said. (the swimmer was correct in his start). I would not confront a referee. I would ask the referee to review a decsion - which is what did the Stroke and Turn judge see; where was the stroke and turn judge; what does the rule say (what is the infraction). All referees will review a call with the judge, even if he saw the infraction himself. In swimming the standard is to give the swimmer a benefit of the doubt so that if under the rule the swimmer could have possibly correctly swam the event the swimmer will not get a dq. If you feel the call was made incorrectly you can protest the call to the head referee. (If you protest a call at a FINA meet, it has to be in writing and will cost you about $75.00 - much better to ask for an interpretation - which costs nothing). I am guessing, but I think the reason that the referee has the final on judgement calls, is that people want to quickly resolve questions about dqs and do not want to go to the hassel of calling a protest committee . The swimmers want to get the question resolved then get the awards and move on In Pacific, I dont know of any meet referee who has less than 12 years experience, and we have some who have over 25 years experience. It kind of works that if we dont think the ref is going to do a good job then we dont ask them to be a referee. michael (national championship certified official former member of rules committee member championship committee chairman pacific masters swimming frequent meet referee at pacific masters meets and trying to get rid of all the inside knowledge)