Fina Rules

Allen, My sincerest apologies for the "little" reference. Kirk, take it in the spirit of competition, and by no means an angry battle cry. I was referring to the personal attacks between Wayne and Dima. It just seemed superfluous to me that they were insulting each other over a race that neither of them competed in. However, it's open season on Katajima, as I am disappointed with the way that he has spoken about his rivalry with Brendan, and his conduct. Also note that when and if I have problems with any other swimmers, Masters, Olympians, or such, it will also be open season on them. I don't discriminate. :D My apologies for fanning the personal attack debates. I was only defending a friend.

Hey Karen I don't think backstroke will ever regain its' 2nd to crawl postion until a new technique is developed, say something like double arm backstroke. George

Originally posted by gull80 Mais non. You see, the rule is that the DQ must be explained in the working language of FINA--English or French. C'est bien! In the orginal thread about Piersol, It was sort of determined that if maybe he had started his turn closer to the wall, there would have been no problemo. also, I know some Japanese guys. Most Japanese are taught to *** stroke first. Then after that they move onto other strokes. One guy saud that they are now taught to do it exactly like Kitajima.

I'm with Allen, let those talented dolphin kickers stay in their own events; we pure breastrokers prefer to comtemplate the obvious esthetic superiority of our chosen stroke away from the cacaphony of babel raised by those who choose lesser strokes. By the way, the group seems well able to have a snarling thread without Ion... Has anybody pointed out to Ande the efficacy of VO2MAX shampoo for latebloomers? It for sure should be a solid swimming tip... Okay, I'll shut up...

On a positive note, Brendan Hansen did not swim a perfect race at Olympic Trials. I sat with his father and family in the stands. Got a Nike hat as part of the honorary Hansen group. Brendan could have had slightly faster turns, say 0.1 seconds in the 100 and 0.3 in the 200. He came off the walls with his wrists pitched down, this resistance cost a minimum of one foot loss off each wall. Say say 0.2 in the 100 and 0.4 to 0.6 in the 200. He could have had his head lower in the 100, like Kitijama. Just getting his head underwater for some portion of his stroke in the 100 would cut 0.2 to 0.8 seconds. Same for the 200, 0.5 to 1.2 seconds cut. His finishes were good but not great like Barrowman. Say another 0.1 seconds. What he had was guts and speed in the 100. If he can go out in 27.8 he can get to 58.9.

You know, Wayne, Stephanie is right - we got carried away by some race we did not even participate in too much.I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or said anything blunt and inappropriate.Let's shake hands and swim breaststroke with no dolphin kicks :-)))

I do not like the specifics of the turn rule, because it penalizes a swimmer for doing something that results in a slower time, and because it is difficult to judge -- that is my opinion as a judge. I would be very interested in some solid data backing up the statement that Europe and the US judge this rule differently. As a swimmer, I never want to go back to the "touch the wall on your back" olden days. It is much easier to hit the turns well and it is faster, and less disruptive in practice (less likely to be in the wrong place when another swimmer is leaving or approaching the wall). Understand that the reason the rule allowing this type of turn was made, was because of how difficult it had become to judge the existing back stroke turn - swimmers were crossing their arm over their body and nearly turning over before touching the wall. Therefore, the backstroke turn now is better than it was, but the rules can be tweaked. The origin of the no glide portion of the rule was the idea that a swimmer should be on the back unless turning - the situation that has been true forever. But the ideal should face reality and lose - a glide should be allowed. A similar thing is happening in the breaststroke pulldown and the associated 'kick.' The problem is not Kitijama's dolphin kick - that was illegal and will, I think, always be illegal. That kick occured coming off the wall and before the pull down of the arms. What is concerning the officials is that during the pull down a small dolphin kick is 'allowed' at the judgement of the S&T judge (language like 'dolphin like motion of the legs is allowed if a natural consequence of the arm pull') So the result is that most, if not all, good breaststrokers have a very solid kick which you and I know is very clearly deliberate but very difficult for the judge to declare illegal (was it natural consequence or deliberate? Is it OK if the swimmer lets it happen, rather than controlling the core muscles and preventing it?). The feeling is, I think, that what is happening anyway, should be legal.

Originally posted by Karen Duggan But what Lindsay pointed out was beaten to death in another thread awhile ago. I can't remember which one, but Peirsol should have been DQd. I remember watching that race for the first time and cringing because his first turn should have a DQ. I felt so bad for him but wasn't suprised when the DQ'd him. I remember this as well, though it wasn't during the final it was during one of the prelims. I don't remember which turn it was on, but he clearly came in, finished pulling, then looked up at the wall and waited a split second to start the turn. I know it wasn't the final I saw because I remember hearing about Peirsol being DQed. I thought it was strange because it had happened the day before. I think the way the backstroke turn is worded is relaly dumb. I got DQed once for the same thing, and the two officials could not tell me the same thing. One told me to kick, the other told me I was out because I kicked.

Live by my theory ... It's only illegal if you get caught ... kidding! Karen, didn't mean to imply you were fired up. I was saying I would try not to get all fired up. :) Thanks for clearing that up for me Phil. So kick like hell is a good idea. I prefer to turn at the wall obviously but I HAVE to turn on my right arm so it creates problems from time to time ... So ... Peirsol got his gold as he should have and Hansen's fired up for four more years (three and a half now). Both good things! Peirsol and Hansen for gold in '05 (hopefully three each)!

Dima, I have never had problems with your posts. I enjoy a good honest argument. There was some newby with 15 posts who I thought was out of line. Phil, I have known two of the all time great breaststrokers. John held the world record going into the 84 Olympics. Steve won the 100 with the greatest start, and finishing with three strokes without a breath. Both would swim under a minute with the new rules. Steve used to chide John because he often piked as a natural part of his hard pulldown. His body would bend as his hands reached past his shoulders on to the waist. John was probably one of the strongest gifted swimmers ever. His coach would not let him do weights because he would bulk up so quickly. After the Olympics he did pro bike, his legs looked like Eric Heiden. Massive:cool: Steve probably spent more time in the gym pumping iron than any breaststroker before or since. Voted "Best Chest" in America and cut like a diamond. Movie star looks, often had two women at parties in La La land. Steve used to say thats OK when John pikes, because he is breaking streamline and loosing distance. Steve was a true Master of the stroke. Both created videos after their days were over. Kitijama does not break streamline when he dolphins as he does it before his hands reach the face. Kitajima spends more of each stroke cycle in streamline than any male breaststroker ever. And he has the best ankle snap. So many coaches and swimmers think the catch of the kick is most important. I don't. I feel the finish where the legs acceleration is fastest and then snapping the ankle is more important. Allen, Kitijama may be your height, Mike Barrowman just a little taller. But you have to admit, you do not scare anyone with your size:D There have been other breaststrokers in our age group who were massive. Paul Henne and Miltenburger were both over 230 pounds of solid muscle. But you sure swim fast! I remember one year I beat you by 0.01 seconds in the 50 to make All American. The pools could have been that much difference, heck a fingernail could have made the difference. We are older, but with our minds and better technique I think both of us could swim faster.