At the U.S. Trials there was one official in every lane looking at the turns, so now that we're in Athens, how does Kitajima get away with that dolphin kick on his turn? It seemed clear to me from the above water shot, then was confirmed with the underwater. Other breaststrokers care to weigh in?
Former Member
Originally posted by geochuck
Of course it is still cheating. Second, are you really suggesting that Kitajima didn't know that dolphin kicks in *** stroke starts and turns are illegal? Get real. I guess your next argument is going to be that his dolphin kicks didn't give him a competitive advantage?
The guy gave himself a competitive advantage by breaking the rules of the competition. How in the world is this not cheating? Where is the honor or even the respect of winning a gold medal when it was obtained solely by cheating conduct? There isn't any honor or respect in that situation.
I would be ashamed and outraged if it was an American that cheated or if the peron cheated out of a medal was Japanese. Either way, cheating is cheating and should not be condoned or dismissed because it was an American that was cheated out of the gold medal. Why this has anything to do with an issue regarding America or Americans is beyond me. I guess some people will use any excuse to bash America or Americans.
Hook'em
Blue
I did a 200 medley and was dQ'd. I did the 50 Fly, then made my turn and took a push off to do the ***, and realised I was supposed to do Backstroke, turned on my Back, then did the ***, then the Free. First time I lost in the 200 medley.
I don't think I was trying to cheat. It just happened. Like I think that little kick of his just happened.
I still like my Tim Horton's coffee hot, just a little cream, no sugar.
George www.swimdownhill.com
Kitajima is one of the most technically correct breaststrokers EVER. I love his stroke, it is exactly what I coach. He has perfect start and has the fastest turns, technically perfect! He glides with his head underwater, what I call the one second drill. I love everything his coach has taught him about the breaststroke.
Knowing this is what really gets me off, because he absolutely KNOWS that his dolphin on the underwater pull down is not legal and he also knows it gives hims an advantage. He knew Brendan was swimming vey fast in prelims.
geochuck, I think that little kick of his just happened Dream on, he knew it, otherwise why did he change in the 200? He has been warned in the past, but if you get away at it at Worlds, why not try it at the Olympics. No one remembers who comes in second place.
So he took a chance and cheated his way to a Gold Medal!
End of story. He CHEATED.
He has the talent to be the best ever, speed with 200 distance power.
At least he won the 200 *** fare and square, so the world complaining at least FORCED him to stop cheating.
Fair enough George. You did not intentionally break the rules when you were dq'd just like I was not trying to cheat when at the end of my first and only 200 fly for Occidental against the University of Redlands in their 33 and a third yard pool in 1973 I started my stroke at the finish, then pulled short and touched (*** pull rather than completing the fly stroke . . . not trying to cheat, just fricking exhausted and not thinking) and got dq'd (would have scored at 3rd place . . . isn't it amazing what sticks with you?) and like I didn't mean to jump early on our relay at SCY Nats in Phoenix last year, but got dq'd for that too.
At any rate, perhaps it was "inadvertent" . . . I don't believe so (how do you accidently dolphin?) but have no personal knowledge of facts one way or the other. Nevertheless, it was still a clear rule violation and one to his advantage. I experimented today at practice and did pushoffs with and without a single dolphin kick . . . absolutely got farther with the kick than without. And if it was intentional, that makes it (in my estimation) worse.
If it was inadvertent, then no intent, but still illegal.
If intentional, cheating.
Both should lead to a dq.
Oh well, life is short, gotta go home and watch some swimming.
carl
Originally posted by aquageek
So, if you don't intend to cheat but inadvertently do, that's ok?
Must be a boring day to discuss swimming on the Canadian MS and English MS discussion forums. Eventually you must get tired of lamenting your own sorry teams and take on the team that really is the best. Then again, Ben Johnson is a national hero still in Canada, correct?
Ben Johnson is still a great shame to Canada, but was only doing exactlly what all the others of his time were doing, only they were not caught. The word was even the American runners were participating in drugs. Carl Lewis however did deny it. Canada has had a bad swim program since the Johnsons' (not Ben Johnson) took over the national plan for Canada. I don't think our swimmers have anything to be ashamed of. They are following the Olympic dream.
George
I certainly wouldn't walk into a sushi bar and shout "Kitajima cheated!"--those knives are very sharp.
Chicken soup at a sushi bar? Maybe it wasn't chicken.
I took a huge shot at the canadian team, but aquageek hit below the belt. Canada has great coaches and a very good sports science program. The engineer who came up with the first Speedo Fastskin was a jet engineer from Canada.
What they do not have is a great college program. They do well with a small program. They do lack the overall leadership such as Bill Sweatham has for England.
This is where the USA educates and trains half the great swimmers in the world. Three of the four from South Africa, Agnes Kovacs, the list is huge at this years Olympics. Stanford and Auborn have half a dozen swimmers swimming for other countries.
Japan, Russia and Australia all have great national programs, the rest of the world can send their swimmers to the USA for free education and Olympic glory.
Why is a dolphin kick off the breastroke turn prohibited? In the other strokes I noticed a dolphin kick used after turning off the wall, or even at the start. Just curious..
Originally posted by aquageek
But (and TiVO is the best thing ever) there is such a major difference in Kitajima's turns from the 100 versus the coverage I watched today in the 200. It's astonishing the difference. Makes me wonder why he so dramatically changed his turns if there was nothing wrong with the 100 turns as he states.
If you would please then go back and watch the other swimmers in the events, every one that I have seen have some sort of kick comming off the wall, many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does yet not once have I seen anyone say anything about it. Even at last year's World's I saw the same thing.
So tonight, when they complain and replay his turns watch everyone else's turns. Hell while we're at it why not say something about Phelps' fly, I saw a couple of times where his feet where not together. Or the backstroke, it seems that everyone finishes thier stroke and "glides" then fliips, something that I've been told you can not do.
