At the U.S. Trials there was one official in every lane looking at the turns, so now that we're in Athens, how does Kitajima get away with that dolphin kick on his turn? It seemed clear to me from the above water shot, then was confirmed with the underwater. Other breaststrokers care to weigh in?
Originally posted by geochuck
First time I lost in the 200 medley. I don't think I was trying to cheat.
So, if you don't intend to cheat but inadvertently do, that's ok?
Must be a boring day to discuss swimming on the Canadian MS and English MS discussion forums. Eventually you must get tired of lamenting your own sorry teams and take on the team that really is the best. Then again, Ben Johnson is a national hero still in Canada, correct?
George, I respectfully disagree!!! Just because he didn't get DQ'd by the judge doesn't mean he shouldn't have! Just says the judge either a) didn't see it (I hope this is why)! or b) Let him get away with it because it is the Olympics!
He clearly dolphin kicked on both the start and turn of the 100!
Originally posted by breastroker
You know, there are only three countries in the world united against drug cheaters, the USA, Australia and Canada. It seems only the USA is taking a strong stand against stroke CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe you said that!!
Is this the posturing that makes the American attitude such an admired thing in the rest of the world?
Are you seriously suggesting that every one of the other 198 countries attending the Olyimpics this year condone the use of cheating?
I imagine you think BALCO was just trying to earn a living and not attempting to create a drug that would help performances!
By the way, how long before someone mentions the fact that Rowdy Gaines was a freestyler and not too much of a breaststroker?
It looks like Edward is lobbying for a position as a stroke and turn judge at the 2008 Games “many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does”. Maybe the Japanese will submit you as their representative.
It appeared to me and others that in the 100 Breaststroke (from the underwater view) Kitaima's pullout did not comply with FINA SW 7.5 “The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. A scissors, flutter or downward dolphin kick is not permitted.”
To his credit he swam a great 200 in the heats and semis, all with legal turns. It should make for another great finals!
Originally posted by Edward The Head
If you would please then go back and watch the other swimmers in the events, every one that I have seen have some sort of kick comming off the wall, many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does yet not once have I seen anyone say anything about it. Even at last year's World's I saw the same thing.
I did watch everyone's turn as it is possible to look at a TV screen and see more than one person. Kitajima's were much more pronounced.
Apparently this Kitajima dude's turns were a sore subject at world's last year, according to Rowdy anyway.
OMG! "Didn't get Dq'd therefor wasn't cheating?!?!?!?" No wonder society is in the shape it's in. If you shoplift and don't get caught, it is still stealing; if you kill and don't get caught, it is still murder; and if my child cribs on a test and doesn't get caught, it is STILL CHEATING!
WARNING WARNING WARNING -- SOAPBOX ALERT
Just because you are not caught does not mean you didn't do wrong... I spent most of my summer preaching "integrity" to my kids--that is, doing the right thing whether anyone is watching or not, this is my mantra for swim practice. And now I read several posts from swimmers who feel that not getting caught equals legal -- BS! He should have been DQ'd, he wasn't. Poor officiating, perhaps--most of us had the benefit of the top view (and the kick was obvious at the start) and the underwater--but that happens in swimming. If the blatantness of the whole thing makes the officials stand up and take notice, more power! We can't change the result, we can change our attitude.
I swam behind someone at last year's LC nationals (yup, that slow...) and the funny thing about Rutger's pool is that it is absolutely clear and when you're a 200 *** (slowly), sometimes you get distracted and start watching the other swimmers in your heat. The swimmer next to me was flutter kicking (2-beat) right at the end of the *** kick. This was not the "hold your feet together at the end of the kick because the motion of the water will make them look like you're flutter kicking" type of kick, but a clear flutter. The officials weren't paying any attention, I was never in contention to even place in the event, and the swimmer was not caught (can't remember if she placed)--point? I'm in the above 40 group, none of us were "new" swimmers, swimming against the rules is a combination of a "learned thing" (often the little dolphin kick is taught (with caveats) to fast swimmers who are more likely to get away with it, and poor instruction/observation. As a coach, everytime I let a swimmer who does a little dolphin off the turn, who likes to splash a turn so the lack of a 2-hand is not obvious slide, I am saying that it is OK to do as long as you don't get caught.
I see coaches on deck take DQ slips and tear them up (often in front of the official) -- our team uses them as learning experiences. Learn to swim fast, correctly, legally and you won't have a bunch of people talking about how you cheated.
But like I said--integrity counts in my world, how 'bout yours?
no, not perfect, stopped even trying to be, but like to think about messages I pass along to others by my actions, and how I might be remember when I leave ("he was a really good breaststroker, remember the '04 olympics when he did that dolphin kick in the 100 Br but didn't get caught?" -- not what I'm looking for, you either, probably)
Down off the soapbox -- isn't it awesome the women's 800 free relay did so well??
Originally posted by londoner62
I cannot believe you said that!!
Is this the posturing that makes the American attitude such an admired thing in the rest of the world?
Right on Paul we all know the drug problem is there and everyone In Canada, USA and Australia are not innocent. The USA has been covering up too long about the drug stuff.
As far as cheating goes did Kosuke Kitajima think he was cheating when he was never told in the past he was cheating or doing wrong. How can you cheat if you don't think you are cheating.
Come on George, any age group breaststroker swimming for a coach with a clue knows that you can't do a dolphin kick with your pull down. Knowing you can get away with it does not mean you're ignorant to your own cheating . . . just that you can get away with it. We then advance to the question of "no call, no foul" vs. ideals of sportsmanship, a topic worthy of discussion and why I started this thread (along with my incredulity at the non-call . . . see Emmitt, not whining, just a good topic for discussion and a blessed change from my ill advised travels into the world of hot coffee and laps . . . pun intended).
carl
