This is somewhat related to another post I just started (Top Ten conerns). I noticed in the top ten list a number of swimmers (generally very fast swimmers) who swam their first nationals (or any other masters meet) in 5 years due to being in a new age group. I state this by looking at the past few years top ten lists and not seeing their names. Is this a good thing for masters swimming? Swimmers whose only affiliation with masters swimming is showing up to one meet every 5 years to break a record. These records should be owned by people that are true masters swimmers.
What is a true masters swimmers?- Perhaps doing a few meets a year might work. When I swam on an age group team as a child, I know in order to qualify for our championship meet, we had to swim at least 3 regular meets. Perhaps a rule like that for Nationals could begin to fix this problem-
If not, many of our national records will be held by "ringers"
Former Member
Sorry Ion, my intention was not to pick on you.
What I was trying to do was make a point to the original poster that it would be impossible to define criteria for record setting based on something other than time.
Whether people swim in more meets, less meets, national meets, local meets, are active in the masters community(whatever that means), a nice person, eat HoHos, lead lanes in workout, swam in high school, swam at a university, are extremely talented in the pool, etc isn't relevant.
If a person falls off the back of a turnip truck, registers with USMS, goes to a sanctioned meet and swims faster than the documented record then he/she is the new record holder. We may not like it or we may be jealous but it doesn't change the basic fact that. The record was broken.
Just my opinion.
To aquageek’s question.
FINA (La Federation Internationale De Natation) is the world governing body for all aquatic sports, as recognized by the International Olympic Committee. FINA covers swimming, diving water polo, and synchronized swimming. Within the category of swimming Masters swimming is one of many sub-categories. Each nation with a FINA recognized Master's swimming group has its own National Governing Body (NGB). In the United States that NGB is United States Masters Swimming Inc. (USMS).
In the discussions in this tread, references to FINA records refer to FINA Masters World records (kept only for short course and long course meters events), references to USMS records refer to United States Masters Swimming records (kept for yards events as well as meter events). The rules pertaining to what is required to set a USMS record differ from the rules required to set FINA records, therefore not all USMS records are considered for FINA records. If you want to do some more digging into the differences – I would point you to Article 105 in the USMS Rulebook. The references to “Masters” could apply to either FINA or USMS depending on the context. It could also apply to other governing bodies for masters swimming, such as YMCA Masters or Senior Games Swimming, but I’m guessing that those and other masters swimming organizations were not indented to be included in this thread.
Rob:
Your explanation was thorough and easy to understand. Thank you very much.
There are probably as many different reasons to be in Master's Swimming as there are swimmers. So, $30 or any figure is enough of a qualification for me.
Now to Tom’s concerns,
I'm not sure what you are going with your listed concerns. But, to the first point - "a fastest time is not necessarily a fastest time anymore". It never was the fastest time. USMS records are just that ,records set by and maintained for United States Masters Swimmers. USMS records are set by USMS registered members who compete in events sanctioned or recognized by USMS. This may be a very parochial view and it obviously excludes performances by foreign athletes and other 19+ swimmers. However, it does not preclude someone from compiling, maintaining, and publishing other fastest times. And to take this point to the absurd, if we really want a record to reflect the fastest swimming time, I heard that a dolphin at Sea World in Orlando, swims the 1650 in 2:04 (even faster than Jim McConica).
As to the question of credibility (having just blown mine), USMS publishes USMS records and I don’t think there are any other claims attached to these are records beyond that . In similar fashion, I think that the YMCA publishes YMCA Masters records, which are for the most part slower or equal to USMS records. The other point credibility has to do with verification. Events sanctioned or recognized by USMS are supposed to conform to certain standards to insure a level playing field for all participants.
To your second point, I think you answered your own concern. To be an “official” Masters swimmer, you need to register with your national governing body, and for those of us in the USA it is USMS through our LMSC's.
Originally posted by Philip Arcuni
top ten and records do not always go to the fastest even now. Here are some reasons:
One tidbit along these lines that I find interesting: where I train there are several triathletes who never swim in USMS meets who I suspect could easily be top ten. Another *very* fast swimmer is training for some Navy SEAL thing and won't be competing in meets. It's humbling in a good, healthy way, I think: aspiring to a certain rank is fun, but there are always going to be faster swimmers out there (some of whom couldn't care less about USMS top ten), and it reminds me to keep my motives internally focused rather than externally focused.
--Brad
Sure, there are some navy seals and tri-atheltes that could make the top ten. But as Ion stated how many of them could beat Paul Carter in 100 meter butterfly. Also,many masters that are not that young anymore don't have that bad of times. In my age group the top time for a women in short course 100yard breastroke was 1:11.0 and this was in the 45 to 49 age group. Back when this woman was swimming in the early 1970's, a 1:09 would have quaified for nationals in 100 yard breastsroke. And how many women in their 50's besides Laura Val can do a 100 yard butterfly in times ranging from 59 to 1:01. When Laura try out for the olympics in 1968, the american record was probably only 57 for 100 yard butterfly. Let's see if Barb Lindquist the world class tri-athlete, can swim freestyle and butterfly when she is in her 50's like Laura Val does.
Possibly........... or maybe just someone not happy with their performance.........or maybe a legitimate concern.
No one has mentioned another possibility for the five year occurance : I find it impossible to maintain what I call "competitive intensity" for more than a couple of years. I can (and do) train every year-all year-but the grind of readying, tapering and competing gets me down after a few years in an age-group. So should I concentrate my efforts on the last years of each age-group ? That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense !
What I do, as a flyer, is to concentrate my efforts in fly over the first several years and then try other strokes and distances to keep my mind in the sport. This has been my last year in this age-group and I have been victimized by nearly everyone at nearly every event ! That's OK......
Each person must find the routine that answers the needs they have for competing, training and just having fun.
~~~~^o^~~~~
If the thread is continuing, I guess so will I. One of the biggest criticisms of my concern is that "since when is a fastest time not a fastest time anymore" The other concern is "how can you have criteria for being an official masters swimmers". Not exact quotes but I think close enough.
Ion got me thinking when he started discussing other swimmers of age who are faster swimmers but perhaps didn't pay the $30.00 masters registration fees and therefore their records can't count. If we are so concerned with the credibility of our records, shouldn't any swimmer over the age of 19 be able to establish a record for masters if they do it at an officiated meet. I am only stating this because it shows that "a fastest time is not necessarily a fastest time anymore"
The second concern "how can you have criteria for being an official masters swimmer" I guess has been answered above. Pay the $30.00 and you get your card and perhaps a record. No one in this thread (except perhaps Ion) believes that there should be any more criteria than this. I guess I do not have an argument here unless someone can help me out.
Tom,
Thinking about your question has brought up an answer and of course several questions - which I'm inclined to believe don't have an easy answer.
The answer to when is the fastest swim not a record (this is only an example). Several years ago, if a High School swimmer in a high school swim meet set a record in backstroke it would only count as a High School record regardless if the swimmer was a USS registered swimmer or not, for the simple reason that High School meets still allowed the backstroke start to have their toes above the water line (standing on the gutter) - so their swim was in compliance of High School rules but not FINA/USS so the swim wouldn't count as a record.
Now for one of my questions in regards to meet participation that was posed at the beginning. What if I was a former swimmer or maybe not a swimmer at all, but decided to take up swimming and set a record at my very first meet, would my record then not count since I hadn't met the qulifications of swimming in X amounts of meets before this (hopefully if this was the case I would be able to swim faster at some upcoming meets in the future and have one of those records count). The seocnd part in addressing this is what happens if I live in an area that does not have very many meets or maybe in the case of someone in the military who gets stationed overseas an does not have the chance to swim in USMS sanctioned meet, then what.
Like I said I don't have the answers, but in regards to records - if someone gets their kicks by setting records every five years so let them, I mean it's not like they are cheating anyone out of millions of dollars.
In reviewing the posts, I note there are FINA, Masters and USMS records. Can someone explain the differences? I assume USMS is the organization that sanctions most of the swim meets we participate in. So, does this mean there are three bodies that recognize times? That would be quite confusing. I do think that in order to have a top X time for USMS you should be required to be a member but I'm open to alternative suggestions.
As to the Ho-Ho issue. I apparenty did not realize the love of this choclaty, cream filled product. I apologize. I saw someone mention a Moon Pie, which is well regarded as a Southern delicacy.