Instead of DQing for a False Start

Knelson - Just to play devil's advocate on a different playing field. If a DQ is a DQ and negates the swim, would you agree that taking your car taken away for your first speeding ticket is fair? Same idea to me. I am not saying there should not be a penalty for doing something wrong, I am just saying the current penalty (complete negation of the swim) did NOT fit the "crime." Especially if the "crime" does not result in a better time or a better place in the race. Paul Paul, I don't share this analogy. Are you suggesting it's ok to give a "penalty" time addition for a false start instead of negating the whole swim; but ok to DQ (negate the whole swim) if you should do a one handed turn in fly or ***, or take two dolphins in a *** pullout, etc.? Are you suggesting a time penalty for one infraction but not others? I guess my question is where do you draw the line? If you swam a 400 LCM IM and took a weak second dolphin kick on one *** pullout the whole swim is negated (assuming you get caught!), and that is ok with you but the false start is not? I'm not seeing the difference. Fun discussion! Jeff

Lets say you have a really fast relay, over 5 sec faster than #2, very close to the WR. With the 5 sec rule you can be very aggressive with your starts, maybe saving enough time for the WR, and if you are too aggressive you can still win. That totally changes the dynamic of the swims.

I don't really swim in meets. But I'm wondering...does FINA/USA Swimming/USMS use "reaction time" for their false starts? In track and field, the blocks have sensors on them that calculate the runner's reaction time after the gun. There is a standard (i.e. fastest human possible) reaction time allowed. If the runner's reaction time after the gun is too fast then they are false started (DQ). Dan Not for individual events. The reaction times are only used to indicate false starts in relays.

Lets say you have a really fast relay, over 5 sec faster than #2, very close to the WR. With the 5 sec rule you can be very aggressive with your starts, maybe saving enough time for the WR, and if you are too aggressive you can still win. That totally changes the dynamic of the swims. I've been waiting for this view to pop up! "Strategic cheating"

Hi Jeff - Good to ask the question. I am suggesting that most DQs have a time penalty instead of an absolute "negate the swim" result. Personally, I think 2 handed touches on breaststroke and fly should go the way of the hand touch on freestyle and backstroke turns, but the converse argument that one hand touch violates the symmetry of the stroke wins out - for now. To your specific example, I think a second dolphin kick should be a 5 sec penalty vs a complete DQ. The hard part of this thought process is administration. You could end up raising your hand for everything you see and it becomes impossible to manage. This is why I used 5 seconds. BUT, it could be 5 secs in 50 races, 10 secs in 100s, etc.. The specific amount is not the key part of this discussion. The key is the concept of penalty to encourage correct swimming vs a complete DQ. Paul

Hi Allen, Not so fast, buckaroo. :) I think you are mixing relays and individual swims. First - 5 seconds is alot of time. Most false starts that require dual confirmation are less than .2 sec too fast. Should a swimmer try to start 5 sec before the starter starts the heat, they would have to take off before the Starter evens says "Take you Mark." Obviously, the Starter would stand the heat up, the offending swimmer would be advised that they could swim it again with a 5 sec penalty added to their final time. If they tried it again, the Meet Referee should DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. As this relates to your specific case, the 5 sec penalty applies to the first leg. After that, the combined exchange time of all three exchanges must be positive. I continue to believe there is no way a lead off swimmer (or individual swimmer) could leave the blocks 5 seconds before the rest of the heat and get away with it. The Starter and Meet Referee would have to be blind or bribed. Perhaps I am missing something, so please clarify what I missed. Paul

I'm wiht the "strategic cheating" crowd, in that I don't like the proposed rule change, as it would further push people to try to anticipate the start. Seems like it would be adding the distance, even wiht a multiplier, a defensive lineman has made his way across the line before theh snap in football. It completely changes the race/play if you don't make it black and white.

Hi Allen, Not so fast, buckaroo. :) I think you are mixing relays and individual swims. First - 5 seconds is alot of time. Most false starts that require dual confirmation are less than .2 sec too fast. Should a swimmer try to start 5 sec before the starter starts the heat, they would have to take off before the Starter evens says "Take you Mark." Obviously, the Starter would stand the heat up, the offending swimmer would be advised that they could swim it again with a 5 sec penalty added to their final time. If they tried it again, the Meet Referee should DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. As this relates to your specific case, the 5 sec penalty applies to the first leg. After that, the combined exchange time of all three exchanges must be positive. I continue to believe there is no way a lead off swimmer (or individual swimmer) could leave the blocks 5 seconds before the rest of the heat and get away with it. The Starter and Meet Referee would have to be blind or bribed. Perhaps I am missing something, so please clarify what I missed. Paul I assume Allen means the relay would have a clean start and then the other three could push their starts (exchanges) as much as they can without false starting; but if one pushes it too far and they get called for it, they would lose the WR after getting the 5 second penalty but at least still potentially win the race. If all of the starts are right on the money then perhaps they get the WR by .01. I think that is what he is trying to say. This is all lively discussion, but assessing various penalties for all of the different infractions (and event distances) would be WAY too subjective and impossible to get everybody to agree to those numbers to pass rules (in my opinion). Jeff

You know, If the relay lead off does incur a 5 sec penalty, the subsequent exchanges cumulatively positive, and they still break the world record, more power to them. The "subjective" argument is always brought up as a reason this cannot be done, but I don't see it that way. Hockey has the penalty box, football has penalties, basketball has penalties, the Biathlon has the penalty box and triathlons have time penalties for drafting. The penalty amount is subjective and agreed to. There is no specific rationale for why the penalties are what they are. If you can't afford the penalty, don't do the crime. Now, imagine in academics if one wrong answer resulted in a ZERO on the test. Imagine a foul in basketball resulting in the player being ejected, or worse, the team automatically losses the game. This is what swimming is right now. Some cultures cut off the hand of a thief. This is what swimming is doing with our current system. I am simply proposing a better way to handle technical violations that are a better way to motivate athletes to abide by the rules. Paul

Good Morning Jeff, You know, we live in a subjective world - it is all around us. How much a house costs? How much we get paid? The cost of s speeding ticket or the length of a prison sentence. I suppose we could set up a "penalty committee" to decide on the severity of DQs that is dependent on the meet, the skill of the swimmer, etc.. Kind of like a jury trial with a jury of our peers. (LOL). A couple of weeks ago, Oregon Masters had an Animal meet where each swimmer had to enter three events - fly, IM, and free (3 different levels of "animal"). Some swimmers choose to only enter two events and did not care if they were included in the overall ranking. Those swimmers were "awarded" a time of the slowest swimmer in the event they skipped PLUS 20 seconds. I thought this was kind of ingenious. Now, if we are worried about being subjective, there is one rule in our rule books under Swimming Competition that should not be there - it is about as subjective as it gets. Read rule 102.13.14. As a friend used to say - "Make for yourself a great day!" Paul