Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

Right, and that's what gets me in a snit about the whole deal. If this only pertained to the ***-free turn, no problem. Still wouldn't particularly care for it, but it's just one turn, and an open turn at that. However, when the rule, as currently interpreted, results in two different standards for flipturns (individual/relay freestyle and medley freestyle), I'm totally not a fan of that, either as a coach or as a swimmer. Not to mention that this new flipturn standard seems very draconian and not well thought out at all.

I agree. It pertains to all turns during the "freestyle" segment of an IM event. Technically it's also going to pertain to the start of the free leg of a medley relay, too. well, no. the IM rules say, 1/4 of the event must be: butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke and a stroke not perviouslly swum. the medley relay rules says, backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly and freestyle. ya see, freestyle on the IM is not the same as freestyle in the relay. clear as mud right? in the relay you CAN do any stroke you want. on the IM you cannot. but somehow we have backstroke that is defined as being on your back...except for that entire 1 stroke you can take on your *** for the flip turn, but we have "a stroke not previouslly swum" that can NOT include coming off the wall on your back when doing something very similar to freestyle.

well, no. the IM rules say, 1/4 of the event must be: butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke and a stroke not perviouslly swum. the medley relay rules says, backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly and freestyle. ya see, freestyle on the IM is not the same as freestyle in the relay. clear as mud right? in the relay you CAN do any stroke you want. on the IM you cannot. but somehow we have backstroke that is defined as being on your back...except for that entire 1 stroke you can take on your *** for the flip turn, but we have "a stroke not previouslly swum" that can NOT include coming off the wall on your back when doing something very similar to freestyle. Unfortunately, the USMS rules interpretation linked in the first post on this thread specifically says the new rule applies to both the IM and the medley relay: "2. FINA issued an additional interpretation of the freestyle portion of the IM and medleyrelay, specifically regarding backstroke, on August 23, 2015. 3. USMS will follow both interpretations as published by FINA and subsequently publishedby USA Swimming on September 8, 2015."

I really need to see how the USMS stroke and turn judges are actually going to call this, though. I know at my local meets, they usually don't call something unless it is blindingly obvious. With that said, there's this snippet in the new rule interpretation: "4. On June 1, 1997, the FINA Technical Committee issued the following interpretation regarding medley swimming. This interpretation remains in force.When a swimmer has traveled a sufficient distance that the official can with certainty judge that the competitor is swimming in the style of butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke, then a disqualification is appropriate." For someone who rotates very quickly to their stomach after leaving the wall, it looks like it is up to the judge's discretion as to whether they consider the swimmer to be swimming in the style of backstroke for that split second while they are on their back. Are judges going to call that? Or are they going to look for folks who are going the Lochte route and go 14.5m on their backs before flipping over? I'm definitely one of the ones who will need to adapt my flip turns if the judges are being instructed from on high to bring the hammer down and consider anyone who is pushing off the wall towards their backs, no matter for how briefly a time, before rotating towards their stomach, as swimming backstroke. If we've got any S&T judges on here, I'd love to hear the official instruction!

ok i made a mistake on the freestyle of the medley relay. man i hate i missed this. in 101.5.2 it calls out the IM *and* the medley relay to be different. so freestyle is anything in a freestyle race but *limited* to "a stroke not previousaly swum" in the IM and medley relay.

The basis of this rule is the statement 'in the style of a stroke previously swam' in IM. And FINA defined being rotated past vertical towards the back while performing dolphin kicks as in the style of backstroke and because backstroke was previously swam, this is a violation. The problem here is that what is the style of butterfly? Butterfly is defined as an arm stroke where both arms pull underwater and recover over water simultaneously and legs moving up and down in the same manner but are not required to be physically together. Body position is defined as shoulders rotated past vertical towards the ***. But, butterfly states that a swimmer may make any number of arm pulls and/or any number of kicks but is not required to do both. So if a swimmer is in a position with shoulders rotated past vertical towards the *** with arms in streamline and is performing a kicking motion where both feet are moving up and down together. That really meets the definition of the style of butterfly so not sure where this train will end finally end up when it crashes. -prw

I was just at the convention in Kansas City for a day and asked several people if there has been discussion on this issue. Apparently, a new interpretation is coming and my source said that stroke judges will be told to watch the feet leave the wall and then, in a controlled manner ("no whiplash"), look up to see if the swimmer has moved toward the ***. If so, no DQ. I guess that gives us a bit more leeway to get onto our front on the turn, but it is still a pretty fuzzy interpretation and different turn judges will interpret this in a variety of ways.

But, butterfly states that a swimmer may make any number of arm pulls and/or any number of kicks but is not required to do both. So if a swimmer is in a position with shoulders rotated past vertical towards the *** with arms in streamline and is performing a kicking motion where both feet are moving up and down together. That really meets the definition of the style of butterfly so not sure where this train will end finally end up when it crashes.Do you have to do either (kick or pull)? Hypothetically, you could swim the butterfly, breaststroke and freestyle legs identically by just pushing off and streamlining on the *** without any kicks or pulls, right?

if you could *glide/float* an entire 25m/y or 50m....yes please also remember that now you can NOT turn over onto your back at any point during the freestyle of the IM or Medley relay. however, there is NO time limit for your turn (take a break, talk to a turn judge, take 5 breaths) and you can hang on the lane rope as well (just dont pull/push off of it) and you can stand on the bottom (but again not walk/propel yourself off it).

Yes, this is the part that worries me. Most judges are going to realize the intent of the rule, but there's always going to be some strict interpreter who decides the letter of the law is that if you leave the wall toward your back it should be a DQ. I think the dolphin kick is the problem with the new interpretation: "When a swimmer has traveled a sufficient distance that the official can with certainty judge that the competitor is swimming in the style of butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke, then a disqualification is appropriate." If one pushes off on one's back and glides beyond 90 degrees before the first kick or pull, there shouldn't be a DQ, or at least a good basis for a challenge of one. I know, there are always judges with a heightened sense of power, and I have been a victim of such once or twice.