Freestyle Flip Turn Question regarding New FINA IM Rules

I read the following PDF regarding the updated rule and interpretation for the freestyle portion of the IM: www.usms.org/.../20150911_fina_im_interpretation.pdf My question is regarding the freestyle flip turn. When you turn, you flip onto your back, push off and start twisting to the proper position for freestyle. It usually happens fairly fast so you're not completely on the back for any more than one kick worth at the most and by then you've begun rotating to the side. Honestly, I still flip slightly diagonally, so my feet land a bit off-horizontal but I've been working on correcting it to what has been shown to me as a more proper technique. But I know as soon as I post this notice for my masters team on Wednesday, they are going to ask the same questions. I would assume that this position of being on the back is normal in freestyle and wouldn't constitute backstroke swimming but I've been wrong plenty of times in trying to interpret rules. But it gets me into wondering, what's going to be the line between a normal freestyle flip turn and too much time on your back? Obviously, no SDK-ing on your back down the length of the pool but exactly how fast does that twist need to be? Is there a standpoint from the officials on this yet? Thanks in advance!
  • ... you can NOT be on your back at any point during the freestyle of an IM. Is this person on her back?
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 9 years ago
    I sent the original poster's question to Kathy Casey, the chair of the USMS Rules Committee. She said that she is working on an article to help clarify the rule. When I receive that article I'll post it here. Anna Lea Matysek
  • Being on the back when leaving the wall for the freestyle portion of the medley is covering more than one quarter of the distance in the style of backstroke and is, therefore, a disqualification. Backstroke swimming is only defined as being on the back.” Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee This is exactly what I was afraid of. So the way we've mostly been taught to do a freestyle flip is now "wrong" in the IM. We'll have to "get lazy" and twist to the side. :-/
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 9 years ago
    Given the image Rob posted, and Kathy's post, the only legal turn for the freestyle leg of IM would be an open turn. Is there any way to execute a flip turn without being on one's back prior to touching the wall? Yes, I'm rarely on my back after a turn. When I come to the wall I kick my legs up then give a slight turn, this turns my body past the *** and by the time my legs have entered the water I'm turn almost all the way on my ***. I don't understand why one would want to rotate with one's entire body in the water, that's a lot more drag to over come, I use gravity to do the work for me. Years ago I asked this same question about doing kicks on my back during IM and wasn't able to get a good answer so I stopped kicking on my back. I'm surprised this hasn't come up long before now as I too found kicking on my back was easier.
  • Former Member
    Former Member over 9 years ago
    I've seen this a couple times now and I'm curious where this comes from. Seems like a Wikipedia definition more than anything. I scanned the fina rules and couldn't find anything similar. Doesn't FINA define backstroke in SW6? If so, it seems like this statement is an oversimplification. For reference I found the FINA rule book and here is FINA Rule SW6, copied from the FINA web site today: SW 6 BACKSTROKE SW 6.1 Prior to the starting signal, the swimmers shall line up in the water facing the starting end, with both hands holding the starting grips. Standing in or on the gutter or bending the toes over the lip of the gutter is prohibited. When using a backstroke ledge at the start, the toes of both feet must be in contact with the end wall or face of the touchpad. Bending the toes over the top of the touchpad is prohibited. SW 6.2 When a backstroke ledge is being used, each inspector at the starting end shall install and remove the ledge after the start. SW 6.3 At the signal for starting and after turning the swimmer shall push off and swim upon his back throughout the race except when executing a turn as set forth in SW 6.5. The normal position on the back can include a roll movement of the body up to, but not including 90 degrees from horizontal. The position of the head is not relevant. SW 6.4 Some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race. It is permissible for the swimmer to be completely sub-merged during the turn, and for a distance of not more than 15 metres after the start and each turn. By that point the head must have broken the surface. SW 6.5 When executing the turn there must be a touch of the wall with some part of the swimmer’s body in his/her respective lane. During the turn the shoulders may be turned over the vertical to the *** after which an immediate continuous single arm pull or immediate continuous simultaneous double arm pull may be used to initiate the turn. The swimmer must have returned to the position on the back upon leaving the wall. SW 6.6 Upon the finish of the race the swimmer must touch the wall while on the back in his/her respective lane. And here is FINA Rule SW9, copied from the FINA web site today: SW 9 MEDLEY SWIMMING SW 9.1 In individual medley events, the swimmer covers the four swimming strokes in the following order: Butterfly, Backstroke, Breaststroke and Freestyle. Each of the strokes must cover one quarter (1/4) of the distance. Interpretation: According to SW 9.1 each of the strokes must cover one quarter (1/4) of the distance. Being on the back when leaving the wall for the Freestyle portion of the Ind. Medley is covering more than one quarter of the distance in the style of Backstroke and is, therefore, a disqualification. Backstroke swimming is only defined as being on the back. See also SW 5.1, SW 6.1 – SW 6.5, SW 7.1 to 7.6, SW 8.1 – 8.5 SW 9.2 In medley relay events, swimmers will cover the four swimming strokes in the following order: Backstroke, Breaststroke, Butterfly and Freestyle. SW 9.3 Each section must be finished in accordance with the rule which applies to the stroke concerned.
  • I really don't like how capricious and arbitrary FINA is, and this is a perfect example of that. Current turn methodology is to flip straight over, which means you're flat on your back when your feet touch the wall. From there, you push off and twist your body to rotate towards your stomach. Quite a few swimmers are somewhat leaning towards their back at the moment they leave the wall, but very quickly rotate past 90° towards their stomach. It would have been much less arbitrary if FINA had come up with a rule that said something to the effect of "during the turn in the freestyle portion of the individual medley and medley relay races, the swimmer must be in the process of a continuous turn towards their stomach." Similar language to the existing backstroke turn rule, and doesn't force a sizable portion of swimmers to change how they do a flipturn on a whim. I foresee lots 'n lots of DQs at all levels of the sport as a result of this. Way to go, FINA! That's one kick forwards, 372,364,139 kicks backwards!
  • I foresee lots 'n lots of DQs at all levels of the sport as a result of this. And what's worse is I have a feeling it will be somewhat arbitrary. You are going to have turn judges who will interpret this strictly and others who will be more lenient.
  • I suspect it will not be called at the elite level, (they didn't call multiple dolphin kicks in BR.) At small meets and in Masters is another issue.
  • The following statement comes from USA Swimming in interpreting the rule. Do you think it gives officials a bit more leeway? It would be an officiating nightmare to decide whether or not a swimmer was more toward his *** when leaving the wall. I totally agree with habu above that, as long as this illogical rule remains ineffect, if there is continuous motion toward the *** when leaving the wall it should not be a DQ. "When a swimmer has traveled a sufficient distance that the official can with certainty judge that the competitor is swimming in the style of butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke, then a disqualification is appropriate." ______________________________________________________________________________
  • I think they should add" when the feet leave the wall , the swimmer must be past 90 to be on their stomach" Would this solve the new ruling?